-- AND WE'LL FILL THE COUCH WITH POLITICOS.

>> ERIC: ONE OF THOSE REPORTERS IS THE "NEWSHOUR'S" FRED DE SAM LAZARO, WHO COVERED TODAY'S ECONOMIC PROTEST.

>> ERIC: JOINING US, TWO FAMILIAR FACES.

"NEWSHOUR" CORRESPONDENT FRED DE SAM LAZARO HAS BEEN COVERING THE INCREASED I.C.E.

ACTIVITY AND FALLOUT FOR THE LAST FEW WEEKS.

AND "PIONEER PRESS" REPORTER FRED MELO, WHO'S BEEN PART OF THE TEAM COVERING THE ST.

PAUL PIECE OF THE STORY.

FRED, WHAT STOOD OUT TO YOU TODAY.

>> THE SHEER SIZE OF THE CROWD.

AND NOBODY KNEW WHAT TO EXPECT.

AND MYSELF INCLUDED.

AND IT WAS INCREDIBLY CROWDED.

I'M TERRIBLE AT CROWD ESTIMATES, BUT I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT IN ANY KIND OF CONGREGATION IN MINNESOTA ANYWHERE.

I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF THE GATHERING FILLED MUCH OF TARGET CENTER, WHICH I THINK HAS A CAPACITY OF 20,000, I'M NOT SURE.

I DIDN'T HAVE A CHANCE TO GO IN AT THE VERY END.

BUT, YOU KNOW, WE SHOT VIDEO ALONG THE PARADE FOR TONIGHT'S "NEWSHOUR."

>> Cathy: WE SEE THAT RIGHT THERE.

BY THE WAY, DID YOU NOTICE LAW ENFORCEMENT ANYWHERE IN DOWNTOWN?

>> NOTABLY ABSENT.

MUCH OF THE TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT, LETTING PEOPLE OUT OF PARKING LOTS, FOR EXAMPLE, AMID ALL OF THESE THRONGS, WAS BEING DONE BY VOLUNTEERS GETTING OFF THEIR BICYCLES, SO IT WAS ORGANIZED, AND HOLDING TRAFFIC AT BAY, HOLDING, YOU KNOW, THE PEDESTRIANS AT BAY TO LET TRAFFIC THROUGH.

THAT PART WAS MPRESSIVE.

>> Cathy: FRED MELO, IN St.

PAUL, I.C.E.

ACTIVITY, IT WAS A PRETTY ACTIVE DAY FOR I.C.E.

AGENTS.

>> IT'S BEEN REALLY AN ACTIVE WEEK.

I MEAN, WE'VE HAD PEOPLE STOMPED AT THEIR HOUSES, PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, STOPPED IN FRONT OF SCHOOLS.

STOPPED.

AND PARENTS DOING PATROLS AROUND SCHOOLS, PARENTS DOING PATROLS AROUND DAY CARE, AND, REALLY, JUST KIND OF VOLUNTEERING TO BE THEIR OWN KIND OF QUASI ALERT FORCE FOR THE WORKERS.

>> Eric: THAT IS AN AMAZING PART OF THE STORY IS HOW THEY ARE ABLE TO KIND OF NETWORK AND FIND OUT WHERE THE I.C.E.

AGENTS ARE.

IT'S REALLY KIND OF AMAZING.

>> THEY'VE HANDED OUT WHISTLES, THEY HAVE KIND OF A WHOLE KIND OF ONLINE SYSTEM WHERE DIFFERENT ORGANIZATIONS ARE ALERTING PEOPLE.

AND I THINK THAT'S GROWING.

THERE'S A LOT OF ANGER RIGHT NOW, AND EVEN THE St.

PAUL POLICE AND SOME OF THE SUBURBAN POLICE DEPARTMENTS ARE SAYING, HEY, I.C.E.

IS STOPPING US, TOO.

WHEN WE'RE OFF DUTY.

>> Eric: HAVE YOU NOTICED, FRED, THAT THIS SEEMS TO BE A GRASSROOTS, BOTTOM-UP KIND OF A REACTION TO I.C.E.?

I WONDER IF THAT GIVES MORE OWNERSHIP TO THOSE THAT ARE ANDROG PUTTING THEMSELVES -- VOLUNTEERING AND PUTTING THEMSELVES ON THE LINE?

>> IT OBVIOUSLY APPEARS TO BE SOMETHING THAT IS GALVANIZING PEOPLE TO ACTION IN A WAY THAT I'VE NOT OFTEN SEEN.

I MEAN, YOU SAW THAT SPORADICALLY, JUST EXPLODE AFTER THE GEORGE FLOYD MURDER IN 2020.

THAT WAS A ONE-OFF.

WHICH IS SOMETHING -- AN OBSERVATION THAT SOMEBODY MADE TO ME VERY EARLY IN THIS, YOU KNOW, SOON AFTER RENEE GOOD WAS KILLED.

THAT WAS A ONE-OFF AND THAT WAS A BATTLE THAT WE FOUGHT, SHE SAID.

THIS ONE IS SUSTAINED AND RELENTLESS, ALMOST.

AND, SO, IT'S DIFFERENT IN THAT SENSE.

AND WHAT'S SUSTAINING IT, SUSPECT, IS A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, REINFORCEMENT, FROM NEIGHBORS, IT FEELS PRETTY ORGANIC TO ME.

WHAT DO I KNOW?

I'M A FELLOW WHO LIVES IN St.

PAUL, WHO, YOU KNOW, PRETTY ORDINARY LIFE.

>> Cathy: HAVE YOU BOTH BEEN AT THE SCENE OF ANY OF THE RAIDS OR THE PROTESTS?

WHAT HAVE YOU NOTICED ABOUT THE TONE AND TENOR THAT YOU'VE NOTICED?

IF YOU'VE SEEN ANY OF THIS.

>> WELL, CERTAINLY, YOU KNOW, I WAS REMOTE FOR ROSE AVENUE, WE HAD ANOTHER REPORTER THERE.

BUT ON FAIRVIEW AVENUE, A COUPLE BLOCKS OFF UNIVERSITY, IT WAS DEFINITELY, LIKE I SAID, THEY ACTIVATE ON FACEBOOK, AND THEN YOU HAVE A LOT OF OLDER PEOPLE, YOU HAVE A LOT OF -- YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE PEOPLE WITH THEIR CANES, YOU HAVE SOME YOUNGER COUPLES.

IT'S PRETTY DIVERSE CROWD, PROBABLY A LITTLE, YOU KNOW, 70, 80% CAUCASIAN.

SO, THIS IDEA OF PAID ACTIVISTS, I DON'T GET THAT SENSE WHATSOEVER.

AND THERE'S PEOPLE WHO ARE HANGING BACK AND JUST CHANTING, AND THEN THERE'S PEOPLE WHO ARE REALLY UP IN THE FACE OF THE I.C.E.

AGENT OR THE St.

PAUL POLICE OFFICER WITH WHISTLES, SAYING, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THIS, YOU KNOW, WHY ARE YOU HERE?

I WOULDN'T SAY IT'S VIOLENT, PER SE, BUT THERE'S ALWAYS ONE OR TWO PEOPLE WHO KIND OF CROSS A LINE, I WOULD SAY, AND THEN THAT GETS .C.E.

OR THE COPS OR WHOEVER'S DOING ENFORCEMENT, THAT IS TRIGGERING FOR THEM AND THAT'S WHERE YOU HAVE A CONFRONTATION.

>> Cathy: IS THERE ANY WAY TO GAUGE AT ALL TODAY'S ECONOMIC BOYCOTT AT ALL?

HAS ANYONE HAD A CHANCE TO FIND OUT HOW MANY BUSINESSES PARTICIPATED AT ALL?

FRED, DID YOU TALK TO ANYBODY?

>> I HAVE READ, YOU KNOW, AND HEARD FROM PEOPLE WHO SAY, YOU KNOW, WHO IS THIS EXACTLY BENEFITTING AND WHO IS IT EXACTLY HURTING?

>> YEAH.

>> I.C.E.

HAS A ABUNDANT BUDGET, IT'S NOT HURTING THEM, SAYS EVAN RAM INSTEAD IN THE "STAR TRIBUNE," FOR EXAMPLE.

THIS IS HURTING THE PEOPLE WHO WORK IN RESTAURANT, THIS IS HURTING OTHERS.

WHEN I TALKED TO ANNIE ROSE, THE "NEWSHOUR," TODAY, SHE SAID, THIS IS SOMETHING IN PRINCIPLE WE HAD TO DO, TO JUST MAKE A STATEMENT.

[ OVERLAPPING CONVERSATION ] >> I THINK WHAT I'VE READ, OVER 700 BUSINESSES, MAYBE AS MANY AS 1,000 OR 1200, NOT ALL OF THEM CLOSED, SOME OF THEM LIMITED HOURS.

THAT'S A LOT OF BUSINESSES.

SO WHETHER IT'S HURTING SALES TAX, WHETHER -- HOW THAT TRICKLES UP AND HURTS THE FEDS, LIKE FRED SAID, I'M NOT SURE.

BUT IT CERTAINLY SENDS A MESSAGE OF UNITY.

>> Cathy: CAN I ASK YOU BOTH, WE'VE DONE STORIES ON MINNESOTA PUBLIC RADIO OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN DETAINED, AND EVERY TIME WE DO A STORY, THERE'S ALWAYS THIS PUSHBACK, WELL, YOU PEOPLE DON'T TELL US WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE THAT PERSON WAS ARRESTED, BEFORE THAT PERSON WAS DETAINED, MAYBE THEY KIND OF DESERVED IT, YOU KNOW.

FRED MELO, YOU DID A LENGTHY STORY ABOUT THE ELDERLY HMONG MAN WHO WAS DETAINED, AND YOU WERE QUITE SPECIFIC.

ARE YOU ALSO RUNNING INTO THIS PUSHBACK ABOUT, TELL US WHAT HAPPENED PRIOR?

>> YEAH, I'M RUNNING INTO THAT PUSHBACK A LOT.

I WROTE ABOUT A WOMAN NAMED NASHRA AHMED, 23 YEARS OLD, FOUND HERSELF SURROUNDED BY A DOZEN AGENTS, SHE WAS LEAVING HER EAST SIDE APARTMENT, TO GO TO THE PHARMACY, GET MEDICINE.

AND SHE SAYS, EY, YOU KNOW, SUDDENLY THERE ARE 12 GUYS AROUND ME.

AND THEY'RE PUSHING ME TO THE GROUND.

AND THEN I SPENT TWO DAYS AT THE WHIPPLE BUILDING, SHERBURNE COUNTY JAIL.

SINCE THEN, MY SOCIAL MEDIA FEED HAS BEEN FULL OF PEOPLE GOING, OH, YEAH, BUT DIDN'T SHE SPIT ON AN OFFICER, DIDN'T SHE KIND OF GET INTO IT WITH THEM.

AND WE'RE KIND OF DISSECTING LITTLE BITS AND PIECES OF CELL PHONE VIDEO THAT PEOPLE ARE SHARING ONLINE.

IT LOOKS LIKE, YEAH, MAYBE AT ONE POINT SHE DID SPIT ON AN OFFICER.

FROM MY VANTAGE POINT, THAT'S AFTER SHE'S KNOCKED TO THE GROUND, AFTER HER MUCH HANDS ARE CUFFED BEHIND HER, SHE SAYS SHE WAS CALLED A RACIAL SLUR.

THINGS HAPPENED VERY QUICKLY.

SHE SAYS THERE WAS BAITING.

THEY TRIED TO GET IT TO ESCALATE, SHE'S SURROUNDED ON ALL SIDES.

FIGHT OR FLIGHT.

THE HMONG MAN, THEY BASHED IN HIS DOOR, 57-YEAR-OLD GUY, HIS KID IS ASLEEP ON THE COUCH, HE'S IN HIS BOXERS, VERY LITTLE RESISTANCE FROM HIM.

>> Eric: DO YOU HAVE A SENSE --.

>> WE'RE LOOKING AT DUELING NARRATIVES.

AND IT'S ASTONISHING TO ME, FLECTLY, HOW -- FREQUENTLY, HOW TWO PEOPLE CAN LOOK AT THE SAME VIDEO AND COME TO RADICALLY DIFFERENT CONCLUSIONS.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALL BEING TRIGGERED, WE'RE ALL -- EACH SIDE IS BEING TRIGGERED BY WHAT THEY WANT -- YOU KNOW, WHAT RIGGERS THEM.

ON THE ONE HAND, YOU HAVE INCIDENTS, MOSTLY RECENTLY OF CHILDREN BEING TAKEN.

THERE HAVE BEEN RESPONSES FROM DHS BOUT THE CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER WHICH THAT HAPPENED.

ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU HAVE AN INTERRUPTION OF A CHURCH SERVICE, WHICH IS A RED LINE FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, CERTAINLY ON THE RIGHT.

THERE'S MORE TALE TO THAT STORY AS WE READ IN THE NEW YORK TIMES" ABOUT THE AI ENHANCEMENT.

SO THERE'S A LOT OF PURSUIT OF THIS -- OF CONTROLLING THE NARRATIVE.

FROM EACH PERSPECTIVE.

AND THERE IS A LOT OF GRAY OUT THERE.

AND I HAVE NO IDEA HOW WE'RE GOING TO SORT THIS OUT IN A WAY THAT GETS US EVEN CLOSER TO CONSENSUS.

>> Eric: WE'RE GOING TO PICK UP THAT AI PART OF THE STORY NEXT.

SO THANKS FOR COMING AND APPRECIATE YOUR WORK.