>> "ALMANAC" IS A PRODUCTION OF TWIN CITIES PBS FOR THE STATIONS OF MINNESOTA PUBLIC TELEVISION ASSOCIATION.

>> Cathy: BUSY SHOW TONIGHT ON "ALMANAC."

JOINING US ON "ALMANAC" TONIGHT, REPORTERS COVERING THE WEEK'S I.C.E.

ACTIVITY AND TODAY'S ECONOMIC BOYCOTT, AN EXPERT ON MEDIA ETHICS AND LAW, SENATOR JOHN HOFFMAN IS RETURNING TO THE STATE CAPITOL AFTER SURVIVING AN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT LAST SUMMER.

AND MARY LAHAMMER HAS BEEN BACK UP AT THE CAPITOL.

>> Mary: WE'LL EXPLORE THE IMPACT OF IMMIGRATION ACTION IN MINNESOTA AND HOW FORMER GOVERNORS ARE ADVISING THE CURRENT GOVERNOR.

>> THIS IS FOR THE SOUL OF AMERICA.

NOW, THE GOVERNOR'S WORRIED SOMEONE ELSE IS GOING TO DIE.

>> IN TERMS OF MINNESOTA, WE'RE THE VICTIMS OF A SERIOUS POLITICAL FIGHT THAT'S WAY UT OF CONTROL.

>> WE NEED OUR LEADERS TO RISE UP.

>> Mary: THAT'S COMING UP ON "ALMANAC."

♪♪ ♪♪ >> "ALMANAC" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY MEMBERS OF THIS PUBLIC TELEVISION STATION.

SUPPORT IS ALSO PROVIDED BY... GREAT RIVER ENERGY: PROVIDING WHOLESALE POWER TO 1.7 MILLION PEOPLE THROUGH ITS MEMBER-OWNER COOPERATIVES AND CUSTOMERS.

DELTA DENTAL OF MINNESOTA FOUNDATION: IMPROVING ORAL HEALTH AND HELPING COMMUNITIES THRIVE.

DELTADENTALMN.ORG/TPT.

AND EDUCATION MINNESOTA: THE VOICE FOR PROFESSIONAL EDUCATORS AND STUDENTS THROUGHOUT THE STATE.

MORE AT EDUCATIONMINNESOTA.ORG.

>> CATHY: ANOTHER VERY FULL HOUR FOR YOU TONIGHT.

WE'LL TALK MEDIA ETHICS AND AI WITH U OF M EXPERT JANE KIRTLEY, SENATOR JOHN HOFFMAN IS HERE TO PREVIEW HIS RETURN TO THE LEGISLATURE AFTER SURVIVING LAST SUMMER'S ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT ON THE -- AND WE'LL FILL THE COUCH WITH POLITICOS.

>> ERIC: ONE OF THOSE REPORTERS IS THE "NEWSHOUR'S" FRED DE SAM LAZARO, WHO COVERED TODAY'S ECONOMIC PROTEST.

>> ERIC: JOINING US, TWO FAMILIAR FACES.

"NEWSHOUR" CORRESPONDENT FRED DE SAM LAZARO HAS BEEN COVERING THE INCREASED I.C.E.

ACTIVITY AND FALLOUT FOR THE LAST FEW WEEKS.

AND "PIONEER PRESS" REPORTER FRED MELO, WHO'S BEEN PART OF THE TEAM COVERING THE ST.

PAUL PIECE OF THE STORY.

FRED, WHAT STOOD OUT TO YOU TODAY.

>> THE SHEER SIZE OF THE CROWD.

AND NOBODY KNEW WHAT TO EXPECT.

AND MYSELF INCLUDED.

AND IT WAS INCREDIBLY CROWDED.

I'M TERRIBLE AT CROWD ESTIMATES, BUT I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT IN ANY KIND OF CONGREGATION IN MINNESOTA ANYWHERE.

I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF THE GATHERING FILLED MUCH OF TARGET CENTER, WHICH I THINK HAS A CAPACITY OF 20,000, I'M NOT SURE.

I DIDN'T HAVE A CHANCE TO GO IN AT THE VERY END.

BUT, YOU KNOW, WE SHOT VIDEO ALONG THE PARADE FOR TONIGHT'S "NEWSHOUR."

>> Cathy: WE SEE THAT RIGHT THERE.

BY THE WAY, DID YOU NOTICE LAW ENFORCEMENT ANYWHERE IN DOWNTOWN?

>> NOTABLY ABSENT.

MUCH OF THE TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT, LETTING PEOPLE OUT OF PARKING LOTS, FOR EXAMPLE, AMID ALL OF THESE THRONGS, WAS BEING DONE BY VOLUNTEERS GETTING OFF THEIR BICYCLES, SO IT WAS ORGANIZED, AND HOLDING TRAFFIC AT BAY, HOLDING, YOU KNOW, THE PEDESTRIANS AT BAY TO LET TRAFFIC THROUGH.

THAT PART WAS MPRESSIVE.

>> Cathy: FRED MELO, IN St.

PAUL, I.C.E.

ACTIVITY, IT WAS A PRETTY ACTIVE DAY FOR I.C.E.

AGENTS.

>> IT'S BEEN REALLY AN ACTIVE WEEK.

I MEAN, WE'VE HAD PEOPLE STOMPED AT THEIR HOUSES, PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, STOPPED IN FRONT OF SCHOOLS.

STOPPED.

AND PARENTS DOING PATROLS AROUND SCHOOLS, PARENTS DOING PATROLS AROUND DAY CARE, AND, REALLY, JUST KIND OF VOLUNTEERING TO BE THEIR OWN KIND OF QUASI ALERT FORCE FOR THE WORKERS.

>> Eric: THAT IS AN AMAZING PART OF THE STORY IS HOW THEY ARE ABLE TO KIND OF NETWORK AND FIND OUT WHERE THE I.C.E.

AGENTS ARE.

IT'S REALLY KIND OF AMAZING.

>> THEY'VE HANDED OUT WHISTLES, THEY HAVE KIND OF A WHOLE KIND OF ONLINE SYSTEM WHERE DIFFERENT ORGANIZATIONS ARE ALERTING PEOPLE.

AND I THINK THAT'S GROWING.

THERE'S A LOT OF ANGER RIGHT NOW, AND EVEN THE St.

PAUL POLICE AND SOME OF THE SUBURBAN POLICE DEPARTMENTS ARE SAYING, HEY, I.C.E.

IS STOPPING US, TOO.

WHEN WE'RE OFF DUTY.

>> Eric: HAVE YOU NOTICED, FRED, THAT THIS SEEMS TO BE A GRASSROOTS, BOTTOM-UP KIND OF A REACTION TO I.C.E.?

I WONDER IF THAT GIVES MORE OWNERSHIP TO THOSE THAT ARE ANDROG PUTTING THEMSELVES -- VOLUNTEERING AND PUTTING THEMSELVES ON THE LINE?

>> IT OBVIOUSLY APPEARS TO BE SOMETHING THAT IS GALVANIZING PEOPLE TO ACTION IN A WAY THAT I'VE NOT OFTEN SEEN.

I MEAN, YOU SAW THAT SPORADICALLY, JUST EXPLODE AFTER THE GEORGE FLOYD MURDER IN 2020.

THAT WAS A ONE-OFF.

WHICH IS SOMETHING -- AN OBSERVATION THAT SOMEBODY MADE TO ME VERY EARLY IN THIS, YOU KNOW, SOON AFTER RENEE GOOD WAS KILLED.

THAT WAS A ONE-OFF AND THAT WAS A BATTLE THAT WE FOUGHT, SHE SAID.

THIS ONE IS SUSTAINED AND RELENTLESS, ALMOST.

AND, SO, IT'S DIFFERENT IN THAT SENSE.

AND WHAT'S SUSTAINING IT, SUSPECT, IS A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, REINFORCEMENT, FROM NEIGHBORS, IT FEELS PRETTY ORGANIC TO ME.

WHAT DO I KNOW?

I'M A FELLOW WHO LIVES IN St.

PAUL, WHO, YOU KNOW, PRETTY ORDINARY LIFE.

>> Cathy: HAVE YOU BOTH BEEN AT THE SCENE OF ANY OF THE RAIDS OR THE PROTESTS?

WHAT HAVE YOU NOTICED ABOUT THE TONE AND TENOR THAT YOU'VE NOTICED?

IF YOU'VE SEEN ANY OF THIS.

>> WELL, CERTAINLY, YOU KNOW, I WAS REMOTE FOR ROSE AVENUE, WE HAD ANOTHER REPORTER THERE.

BUT ON FAIRVIEW AVENUE, A COUPLE BLOCKS OFF UNIVERSITY, IT WAS DEFINITELY, LIKE I SAID, THEY ACTIVATE ON FACEBOOK, AND THEN YOU HAVE A LOT OF OLDER PEOPLE, YOU HAVE A LOT OF -- YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE PEOPLE WITH THEIR CANES, YOU HAVE SOME YOUNGER COUPLES.

IT'S PRETTY DIVERSE CROWD, PROBABLY A LITTLE, YOU KNOW, 70, 80% CAUCASIAN.

SO, THIS IDEA OF PAID ACTIVISTS, I DON'T GET THAT SENSE WHATSOEVER.

AND THERE'S PEOPLE WHO ARE HANGING BACK AND JUST CHANTING, AND THEN THERE'S PEOPLE WHO ARE REALLY UP IN THE FACE OF THE I.C.E.

AGENT OR THE St.

PAUL POLICE OFFICER WITH WHISTLES, SAYING, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THIS, YOU KNOW, WHY ARE YOU HERE?

I WOULDN'T SAY IT'S VIOLENT, PER SE, BUT THERE'S ALWAYS ONE OR TWO PEOPLE WHO KIND OF CROSS A LINE, I WOULD SAY, AND THEN THAT GETS .C.E.

OR THE COPS OR WHOEVER'S DOING ENFORCEMENT, THAT IS TRIGGERING FOR THEM AND THAT'S WHERE YOU HAVE A CONFRONTATION.

>> Cathy: IS THERE ANY WAY TO GAUGE AT ALL TODAY'S ECONOMIC BOYCOTT AT ALL?

HAS ANYONE HAD A CHANCE TO FIND OUT HOW MANY BUSINESSES PARTICIPATED AT ALL?

FRED, DID YOU TALK TO ANYBODY?

>> I HAVE READ, YOU KNOW, AND HEARD FROM PEOPLE WHO SAY, YOU KNOW, WHO IS THIS EXACTLY BENEFITTING AND WHO IS IT EXACTLY HURTING?

>> YEAH.

>> I.C.E.

HAS A ABUNDANT BUDGET, IT'S NOT HURTING THEM, SAYS EVAN RAM INSTEAD IN THE "STAR TRIBUNE," FOR EXAMPLE.

THIS IS HURTING THE PEOPLE WHO WORK IN RESTAURANT, THIS IS HURTING OTHERS.

WHEN I TALKED TO ANNIE ROSE, THE "NEWSHOUR," TODAY, SHE SAID, THIS IS SOMETHING IN PRINCIPLE WE HAD TO DO, TO JUST MAKE A STATEMENT.

[ OVERLAPPING CONVERSATION ] >> I THINK WHAT I'VE READ, OVER 700 BUSINESSES, MAYBE AS MANY AS 1,000 OR 1200, NOT ALL OF THEM CLOSED, SOME OF THEM LIMITED HOURS.

THAT'S A LOT OF BUSINESSES.

SO WHETHER IT'S HURTING SALES TAX, WHETHER -- HOW THAT TRICKLES UP AND HURTS THE FEDS, LIKE FRED SAID, I'M NOT SURE.

BUT IT CERTAINLY SENDS A MESSAGE OF UNITY.

>> Cathy: CAN I ASK YOU BOTH, WE'VE DONE STORIES ON MINNESOTA PUBLIC RADIO OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN DETAINED, AND EVERY TIME WE DO A STORY, THERE'S ALWAYS THIS PUSHBACK, WELL, YOU PEOPLE DON'T TELL US WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE THAT PERSON WAS ARRESTED, BEFORE THAT PERSON WAS DETAINED, MAYBE THEY KIND OF DESERVED IT, YOU KNOW.

FRED MELO, YOU DID A LENGTHY STORY ABOUT THE ELDERLY HMONG MAN WHO WAS DETAINED, AND YOU WERE QUITE SPECIFIC.

ARE YOU ALSO RUNNING INTO THIS PUSHBACK ABOUT, TELL US WHAT HAPPENED PRIOR?

>> YEAH, I'M RUNNING INTO THAT PUSHBACK A LOT.

I WROTE ABOUT A WOMAN NAMED NASHRA AHMED, 23 YEARS OLD, FOUND HERSELF SURROUNDED BY A DOZEN AGENTS, SHE WAS LEAVING HER EAST SIDE APARTMENT, TO GO TO THE PHARMACY, GET MEDICINE.

AND SHE SAYS, EY, YOU KNOW, SUDDENLY THERE ARE 12 GUYS AROUND ME.

AND THEY'RE PUSHING ME TO THE GROUND.

AND THEN I SPENT TWO DAYS AT THE WHIPPLE BUILDING, SHERBURNE COUNTY JAIL.

SINCE THEN, MY SOCIAL MEDIA FEED HAS BEEN FULL OF PEOPLE GOING, OH, YEAH, BUT DIDN'T SHE SPIT ON AN OFFICER, DIDN'T SHE KIND OF GET INTO IT WITH THEM.

AND WE'RE KIND OF DISSECTING LITTLE BITS AND PIECES OF CELL PHONE VIDEO THAT PEOPLE ARE SHARING ONLINE.

IT LOOKS LIKE, YEAH, MAYBE AT ONE POINT SHE DID SPIT ON AN OFFICER.

FROM MY VANTAGE POINT, THAT'S AFTER SHE'S KNOCKED TO THE GROUND, AFTER HER MUCH HANDS ARE CUFFED BEHIND HER, SHE SAYS SHE WAS CALLED A RACIAL SLUR.

THINGS HAPPENED VERY QUICKLY.

SHE SAYS THERE WAS BAITING.

THEY TRIED TO GET IT TO ESCALATE, SHE'S SURROUNDED ON ALL SIDES.

FIGHT OR FLIGHT.

THE HMONG MAN, THEY BASHED IN HIS DOOR, 57-YEAR-OLD GUY, HIS KID IS ASLEEP ON THE COUCH, HE'S IN HIS BOXERS, VERY LITTLE RESISTANCE FROM HIM.

>> Eric: DO YOU HAVE A SENSE >> WE'RE LOOKING AT DUELING NARRATIVES.

AND IT'S ASTONISHING TO ME, FLECTLY, HOW -- FREQUENTLY, HOW TWO PEOPLE CAN LOOK AT THE SAME VIDEO AND COME TO RADICALLY DIFFERENT CONCLUSIONS.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALL BEING TRIGGERED, WE'RE ALL -- EACH SIDE IS BEING TRIGGERED BY WHAT THEY WANT -- YOU KNOW, WHAT RIGGERS THEM.

ON THE ONE HAND, YOU HAVE INCIDENTS, MOSTLY RECENTLY OF CHILDREN BEING TAKEN.

THERE HAVE BEEN RESPONSES FROM DHS BOUT THE CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER WHICH THAT HAPPENED.

ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU HAVE AN INTERRUPTION OF A CHURCH SERVICE, WHICH IS A RED LINE FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, CERTAINLY ON THE RIGHT.

THERE'S MORE TALE TO THAT STORY AS WE READ IN THE NEW YORK TIMES" ABOUT THE AI ENHANCEMENT.

SO THERE'S A LOT OF PURSUIT OF THIS -- OF CONTROLLING THE NARRATIVE.

FROM EACH PERSPECTIVE.

AND THERE IS A LOT OF GRAY OUT THERE.

AND I HAVE NO IDEA HOW WE'RE GOING TO SORT THIS OUT IN A WAY THAT GETS US EVEN CLOSER TO CONSENSUS.

>> Eric: WE'RE GOING TO PICK UP THAT AI PART OF THE STORY NEXT.

SO THANKS FOR COMING AND APPRECIATE YOUR WORK.

THANKS.

>> Cathy: YEAH, THANKS, APPRECIATE IT.

>> Dr.

KING WOULD SAY, IF WE USE THE WAY OF VIOLENCE, USE THE WEAPONS OF VIOLENCE, WE ALL WILL BE BLIND AND LAME.

AND THAT'S NOT THE WAY.

VIOLENCE MAY BRING ABOUT SOME TEMPORARY CHANGES, BUT IF YOU WANT MEANINGFUL AND LASTING CHANGES, YOU WANT O CREATE A BELOVED COMMUNITY, CREATE WHAT I LIKE TO CALL ONE HOUSE, ONE FAMILY, ONE COMMUNITY, THEN THE WAY OF NONVIOLENCE IS THE WAY.

I HAPPEN TO BELIEVE THAT THE WAY OF NONVIOLENCE IS ONE OF THOSE IMMUTABLE CHANGES, PRINCIPLES, THAT YOU DO NOT DEVIATE FROM.

♪♪ >> Cathy: YOU HEARD FROM FRED SAM DELAZARO, THURSDAY FEDERAL CHARGES WERE ANNOUNCED AGAINST THREE PEOPLE CHARACTERIZED AS THE "RING LEADERS" OF AN ANTI-I.C.E.

PROTEST DURING A CHURCH SERVICE LAST WEEKEND.

CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY NEKIMA LEVY ARMSTRONG, ST.

PAUL SCHOOL BOARD MEMBER CHAUNTYLL ALLEN AND SOCIAL MEDIA PERSONALITY WILLIAM KELLY WERE ARRESTED AND HELD OVERNIGHT.

A FEDERAL JUDGE ORDERED THEIR RELEASE ON FRIDAY.

AS OF MID AFTERNOON LEVY ARMSTRONG AND ALLEN HAD BEEN RELEASED.

TWO IMAGES OF LEVY ARMSTRONG BEING TAKEN INTO CUSTODY ON THURSDAY HAVE BEEN ALL OVER SOCIAL MEDIA.

ONE OF THEM IS REAL.

THE OTHER ONE WAS ALTERED BY THE WHITE HOUSE WITH THE USE OF ARTIFICAL INTELLIGENCE.

THE WHITE HOUSE SAYS THEY WILL CONTINUE TO USE AI TO CREATE "MEMES."

JANE KIRTLEY HEADS UP THE SILHA CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF MEDIA ETHICS AND LAW AT THE U OF M. GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Cathy: I REMEMBER SEEING THAT PICTURE TODAY, AS A MATTER OF FACT, AND I LOOKED AT THIS, AND I THOUGHT, THAT CANNOT BE REAL.

>> THAT'S BECAUSE IT'S NOT.

>> Cathy: I MEAN, KNOWING NEKIMA LEVY-ARMSTRONG.

HOW SURPRISED WERE YOU TO LEARN THAT THE WHITE HOUSE ADMITTED TO DOING THIS?

>> IT'S BRAZEN IS THE ONLY WORD THAT I CAN USE.

THE FACT THAT THEY WOULD SAY, OH, IT'S A EME, MEANS IT'S ONE OF THESE SITUATIONS WHERE THEY'RE SAYING, OH, IT'S HUMOROUS, YOU KNOW, NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

IT'S OUTRAGEOUS, AND IT'S ALSO INCREDIBLY STUPID BECAUSE THEY HAD RELEASED THE CORRECT PHOTO IN THE FIRST INSTANCE, SO BY RELEASING THIS ONE, THEY JUST SET THEMSELVES UP FOR EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED, WHICH WAS A SOCIAL MEDIA EXPLOSION ABOUT REVEALING THAT THEY HAD DONE THIS.

>> Eric: THIS KIND OF STUFF, NOT ON THIS SUBJECT MATTER EVEN, BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS SEEMS TO BE INCREASING.

>> IT IS.

AND I THINK IT'S A POLICY, PRETTY CLEARLY.

I MEAN, WE KNOW THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS CASUAL WITH THE TRUTH.

BUT WE ALSO NOW SEE THAT ON GOVERNMENT WEBSITES AND IN THESE COMMUNICATIONS, OFTEN IN THEIR TROLLING SOCIAL MEDIA, THAT THEY CHEERFULLY AND CASUALLY LIE ABOUT EVERYTHING.

>> Eric: UT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ISN'T ALONE.

THIS IS HAPPENING ALL OVER THE LANDSCAPE.

>> WELL, OF COURSE, GOVERNMENTS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN CARELESS ABOUT TRUTHFULNESS.

BUT THIS IS AT NEW LEVEL, I THINK.

AND TERRIBLY DANGEROUS BECAUSE HOW CAN WE POSSIBLY HAVE A SERIOUS DISCUSSION ABOUT POLICY IF WE CAN'T HAVE SOME FACTS THAT WE CAN AGREE ON.

AND, YOU KNOW, IF YOU THINK BACK TO THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, ALTERNATIVE FACTS, FAKE EWS, ONCE AGAIN, WE NOW HAVE THIS ADMINISTRATION ESSENTIALLY ENGAGING IN THE VERY SAME THINGS IT WAS ACCUSING OTHERS OF DOING IN THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION.

WHICH WAS MAKING THINGS UP.

>> Cathy: CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO FOLKS HOW DO MEMES AND IMAGES REINFORCE BELIEFS?

>> IT HAS A TREMENDOUS PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECT ON PEOPLE.

ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO, LET'S SAY, JUST GO TO THE SIMILAR SOURCES ALL THE TIME, WHETHER IT'S SOCIAL MEDIA OR PARTICULAR NEWS OUTLET, AND IF IT REINFORCES THE BELIEF THAT THEY HAVE, IT'S CATCHY, IT'S EYE CATCHY, IT'S MEMORABLE, AND IT JUST SAYS, OKAY, THIS MUST BE THE TRUTH.

I LIKE THIS.

>> Eric: IF THIS IS THE WILD WILD WEST, IN THIS SOCIAL MEDIA SITUATION, DOES THE FIRST AMENDMENT COME INTO PLAY?

WHAT ROLE DOES IT PLAYER, I GUESS?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THE SUPREME COURT HAS SAID THAT WE HAVE A RIGHT TO LIE UNDER THE CONSTITUTION.

THAT'S PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

AND THAT EXTENDS BASICALLY TO EVERYBODY AND EVEN TO THE GOVERNMENT, EXCEPT IN SOME LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES.

BUT I THINK ULTIMATELY WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS A WORLD WHERE YOU HAVE NO CONFIDENCE THAT WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS TRUE UNLESS IT REINFORCES WHAT YOU ALREADY BELIEVE.

FOR ME, IT'S JUST SUCH A FUNDAMENTAL ASSAULT ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES, SMALL D DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES, I CAN'T WRAP MY HEAD AROUND IT.

>> Cathy: I'M SUCH A CYNIC, I WONDER IF THIS IS ALL DELIBERATE.

>> I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT IT'S DELIBERATE.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO SAY THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT STEVE BANNON WANTED TO DO, THAT STEVEN MILLER NOW WANTS TO DO.

IT'S PROPAGANDA.

IT'S THE KIND OF THING THAT WE'VE SEEN IN AUTO CRACKED COUNTRIES AROUND THE -- AUTOCRATIC COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD.

AND IT'S ALL ABOUT SHIFTING THE SANDS UNDER PEOPLE SO THEY REALLY DON'T KNOW QUITE WHAT TO BELIEVE.

AND I'M NOT SAYING YOU SHOULD TRUST THE GOVERNMENT IMPLICITLY, BUT IF YOU REALLY CAN'T UNDERSTAND THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS DELIBERATELY LYING TO YOU, I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU HAVE TRUST AFTER THAT.

>> Cathy: WHAT ABOUT FOLKS LIKE US, THE MEDIA, BIG M MEDIA, I GUESS, SO WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO?

BECAUSE I KNEW WHEN I SAW THAT IMAGE, THAT WAS A AKE IMAGE.

BUT OTHER NORMAL PEOPLE WOULDN'T HAVE THAT ABILITY.

>> THAT'S TRUE, BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE TOOLS OUT THERE THAT MAKES IT POSSIBLE.

EVEN FOR NORMAL PEOPLE TO TRY TO DETERMINE WHETHER SOMETHING HAS BEEN AI GENERATED.

THERE ARE AI DETECTION TOOLS, THERE ARE A VARIETY OF THINGS THAT ANYBODY CAN USE.

BUT OBVIOUSLY THE NEWS MEDIA, I THINK, HAVE A CLEAR, ETHICAL OBLIGATION TO CHECK FOR THE WATER MARKS, TO CHECK FOR AI GENERATION, AND TO CALL THEM OUT ON IT, BECAUSE IF SOMEBODY DOESN'T DO IT, THIS KIND OF PERPETUATION OF LIES, WHICH IS WHAT THESE ARE, WILL CONTINUE UNABATED.

>> Eric: CAN THE TECH COMPANIES BE COMPELLED TO DO SOMETHING?

I ASSUME THEY COULD.

>> IN THEORY, YES.

YOU MENTIONED THE FIRST AMENDMENT, THAT'S BEEN ONE OF THE BIG OBSTACLES.

TECH COMPANIES HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH MURDER EVERY SINCE THE ENACTMENT OF SECTION 230 AND IT GIVES THEM TREMENDOUS IMMUNITY FOR OUR USER-GENERATED CONTENT.

THEY COULD USE TO DO THIS ON THEIR OWN, BUT FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO FORCE THEM TO DO IT, IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

>> Cathy: SAY, I GOTTA ASK YOU ABOUT THE CHURCH PROTEST ON SUNDAY.

>> YES.

>> Cathy: THAT, AS WE WERE TALKING ON THE COUCH, WAS A RED LINE FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE TO DISRUPT A CHURCH SERVICE.

>> YEAH.

>> Cathy: BUT WAS THAT COVERED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT?

>> WELL, IT'S COMPLICATED.

BUT THERE IS THIS LAW, OU MENTIONED THE FACE ACT, THAT SPECIFICALLY SAYS THAT YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO GO IN AND TERRORIZE PEOPLE IN CHURCHES.

FAITH ACT.

IT'S A LAW THAT HAS NOT BEEN USED IN THAT CONTEXT.

ODDLY ENOUGH, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WANTED TO HAVE THE LAW REPEALED, BUT NOW THEY'RE USING IT IN THIS VERY AGGRESSIVE WAY.

DO PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO PROTEST IN A CHURCH?

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS IS, WE WERE INVITED IN.

WELL, YOU WERE INVITED IN FOR WHAT PURPOSE?

WAS IT TO PROTEST?

AND IF THAT WASN'T THE PURPOSE, THEN YOU MIGHT HAVE A TRESPASS CHARGE.

BUT THE NOTION THAT THIS IS TERRORISM, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY WHAT THE FAITH ACT IS ABOUT, SEEMS TO ME TO BE OVERREACH HERE.

I THINK THAT THIS WILL NOT STABBED WOULD BE MY PREDICTION.

>> Cathy: ALL RIGHT.

>> Eric: APPRECIATE YOU COMING OVER.

THANKS A LOT.

>> Cathy: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Eric: GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> Cathy: WE'RE GOING TO SWITCH OUT GUESTS RIGHT NOW.

WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH ANOTHER U OF M PROFESSOR.

>> ERIC: WHILE MINNESOTA CONTINUES TO DRAW NATIONAL ATTENTION, INCLUDING A VISIT FROM VICE PRESIDENT VANCE THIS WEEK, OUT AT THE DAVOS SUMMIT IN SWITZERLAND PRESIDENT TRUMP PROMOTED HIS BOARD OF PEACE CHARTER AND RANKLED ALLIES OVER HIS DESIRE FOR GREENLAND.

IN D.C., HOUSE REPUBLICANS AVERTED A GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN AND BLOCKED ANOTHER WAR POWERS RESOLUTION OVER ACTIONS IN VENEZUELA.

HERE TO HELP US SIFT THROUGH IT ALL, LARRY JACOBS HEADS UP THE CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF POLITICS AND GOVERNANCE AT THE U OF M'S HUMPHREY SCHOOL.

WHERE DO YOU WANT TO START?

I SUPPOSE DAVOS?

>> I ACTUALLY THINK WHAT YOU JUST SAID, IT UNDERLINES THE CENTRAL CHARACTERISTIC OF DONALD TRUMP'S PRESIDENCY.

WHICH IS ON THE DOMESTIC FRONT, HE'S GOTTEN A LOT OF HEADACHES.

AND JUST IN THE LAST WEEK OR SO, HE'S HAD REPUBLICAN SENATORS, YOU KNOW, THREATENING TO SUPPORT WAR POWERS RESOLUTION, WE'VE SEEN THE BUDGET PROCESS MOVE FORWARD, IT'S MOVING FORWARD, AND MANY OF HIS BUDGET PROPOSALS ARE BEING OVERTURNED.

SO IT'S HEADACHES ON THE LEGISLATIVE FRONT IN CONGRESS, AND ON THE DOMESTIC FRONT, HE GOES TO DAVOS, YOU KNOW, HE DOES A FEW TWEETS, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN HE'S THE CENTER OF ATTENTION.

PEOPLE ARE FLOCKING AROUND HIM.

LARGE NEWS CONFERENCES, RESPECTFUL VOICES.

SO THIS IS, YOU KNOW, I THINK A CLASSIC CASE OF TWO PRESIDENCIES, WHERE YOU'VE GOT THE FOREIGN POLICY, NATIONAL SECURITY PRESIDENCY, POWER, YOU KNOW, INDIVIDUAL BARGAINING, VISIBLE RESULTS RIGHT AWAY, WHEREAS, THE LEGISLATIVE FRONT, THE DOMESTIC SIDE, BOY, YOU BETTER GET YOUR ASPIRIN.

>> Cathy: BOY, ON PUBLIC RADIO, WE HAD THE WHOLE SPEECH ON THE AIR LIVE FOR AN HOUR AND 15 MINUTES.

AND SOME OF THE COMMENTARY AFTERWARD WAS FROM SOME OF THE INTERNATIONAL REPORTERS.

WHO SAID ON THE WORLD STAGE, LEADERS ARE KIND OF LOOKING AT THE PRESIDENT AND THINKING, IS HE WELL?

I MEAN, WHAT'S GOING ON HERE?

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK DONALD TRUMP'S HAD A PRETTY LONGSTANDING VIEW ABOUT EUROPE AND OUR ALLIES.

HE DOESN'T THINK THERE'S MUCH TO IT.

HE DOESN'T PUT A WHOLE LOT OF FAITH IN THE IDEA OF A RULE-BASED ORDER.

HE DOESN'T REALLY THINK LONG-TERM IN TERMS OF A STRATEGY THAT WOULD BE ONGOING.

HE'S VERY, YOU KNOW, TRANSACTIONAL AND SHORT-TERM ORIENTED.

AND THERE ARE TREMENDOUS COSTS TO THAT.

IN TERMS OF WE'RE CLEARLY ERODING OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH OUR ALLIES.

AMERICA'S KIND OF ROLE AS A LEADER OF THE RULE-BASED ORDER HAVE BEEN IN DECLINE.

BUT DONALD TRUMP HAS PUSHED IT FORWARD A LOT.

EXAMINE THEN HIS OWN CREDIBILITY, I THINK, HAS BEEN DAMAGED.

HE MAKES A BIG DEAL ABOUT, HE'S GOING TO SEIZE GREENLAND, AND THEN HE QUICKLY BACKS DOWN.

AND IT'S NOT CLEAR WHAT HE GOT, IF ANYTHING, THAT'S AN IMPROVEMENT.

I TEND TO AGREE THAT THIS WAS NOT KIND OF HOW YOU SHOULD BE DOING THINGS.

BUT I THINK IT'S VERY CONSISTENT WITH DONALD TRUMP, AND I WOULDN'T BE RUNNING TO THE, YOU KNOW, THERE'S SOME, YOU KNOW, MENTAL ISSUE HERE.

>> Cathy: GO AHEAD, SORRY, GO AHEAD.

>> Eric: JANUARY 30th, GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN, SEEMS LIKE THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

THE HOUSE HAS DONE ITS 12 BUDGET BILLS.

BUT I WONDER IF WE'VE SEEN A TRUMP BUDGET TO CONGRESS.

HAVE WE SEEN A DOCUMENT?

>> WELL, THE WHITE HOUSE HAS SIGNALED WHAT IT WANTS, BUT, FRANKLY, MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, INCLUDING REPUBLICANS, DON'T SEEM TO CARE.

THEY WENT BACK AND THEY DREW UP THEIR OWN BUDGETS, WHETHER IT'S, YOU KNOW, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY, EDUCATION, THE ENVIRONMENT, HEALTHCARE, THEY'RE GOING BACK TO KIND OF THE OLD GAME PLAYBOOK.

SO I THINK THIS IS ANOTHER CASE OF THE OMESTIC FRONT WHERE DONALD TRUMP IS SEEING THAT HIS AGENDA, WHILE IT'S NOT VERY CLEAR, IS BEING THWARTED.

>> Cathy: SO, THERE WAS A LOT OF INTERNATIONAL ATTENTION OVER THE TWO LITTLE KIDS WHO WERE DEPORTED, THE 5-YEAR-OLD AND THE 2-YEAR-OLD FROM MINNESOTA, THEY WERE SWEPT UP IN I.C.E.

RAIDS WITH A PARENT AND NOW THEY'RE IN TEXAS.

THE OPTICS OF WHAT'S GOING ON HERE IN THE TWIN CITIES DON'T LOOK GREAT.

THERE WAS THE POLL TODAY FROM "THE NEW YORK TIMES" AND CNN THAT DID NOT LOOK LIKE VOTERS ARE REALLY -- THEY'RE NOT INTO THIS AT ALL.

AND I'M WONDERING, IF THE PRESIDENT LOOKS AT WHAT'S GOING ON HERE, WHAT'S THE MECHANISM TO RETHINK THIS OPERATION, DO YOU THINK?

>> DONALD TRUMP DOESN'T SEEM TO BE A REFLECTIVE PERSON.

BUT I THINK THE TELL HERE WAS JD VANCE.

JD VANCE COMING TO MINNESOTA AND USING THE WORD "COOPERATION."

THAT WAS A MAJOR SIGNAL HAT HE WANTS TO SEE THE TEMPERATURE IN MINNESOTA DECREASED.

IT'S A MESSAGE WITHIN THE ADMINISTRATION TO DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND TO SOME OF THE SENIOR OFFICIALS IN THE WHITE HOUSE THAT THEY NEED TO TAMP THINGS DOWN.

WHY?

IF YOU LOOK BACK, THERE'S ALMOST 30 ELECTIONS, MIDTERM AND PRESIDENTIAL, SINCE 1968, ONLY THREE OF THEM INVOLVE NATIONAL SECURITY AND FOREIGN POLICY.

IF THE REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO HAVE A CHANCE IN THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS, NO ONE'S BETTING ON THAT, THEY NEED TO TURN THE SCRIPT, THEY NEED TO GET AWAY FROM THE ECONOMIC PESSIMISM THAT'S DOM IT NAICT.

SO -- DOMINATING.

SO I DON'T THINK DONALD TRUMP IS THE LEADER OF THIS, BUT I THINK JD VANCE'S TRIP WAS REALLY TELLING.

>> Eric: GREAT STUFF.

THANKS FOR COMING OVER.

>> Cathy: THANK YOU.

APPRECIATE IT.

STAY WARM.

♪♪ >> CATHY: THERE IS A NEW HEAD OF THE MENTAL ADVOCACY GROUP, NAMI, AND HE'S FOLLOWING UP THE DECADES-LONG TENURE OF SUE ABDERHOLDEN.

HE'S ON THE TAIL-END OF HIS FIRST HUNDRED DAYS IN THE POSITION AND JOINS US NOW.

NEW NAMI MINNESOTA EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MARCUS SCHMIT.

GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE.

>> THANKS FOR THE INVITE, CATHY.

>> Cathy: GOSH, LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE TWIN CITIES, WHICH IS A AWFUL LOT.

THERE IS A LOT OF FEAR, AND ANGER, DOES THIS FEEL LIKE COVID, IN TERMS OF HOW PEOPLE ARE HANDLING THINGS, TO YOU?

>> IT DOES.

VERY MUCH SO.

AND I WAS WEARING A DIFFERENT HAT AT THE TIME.

AND, YEAH, IT FEELS LIKE WE'RE EXPERIENCING A LOT OF THE SAME THINGS.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE EXPERIENCING TRAUMA, BEING RETRAUMATIZED, PARENTS ARE HAVING REALLY DIFFICULT CONVERSATIONS WITH KIDS.

AND THERE ARE A LOT OF CHILDREN RIGHT NOW THAT ARE EXPERIENCING ISOLATION AND WE KNOW THAT THE AFTERMATH OF THIS IS GOING TO BE REALLY REALLY DIFFICULT.

>> Eric: DOES THE STATE HAVE THE -- OR THE FEDS HAVE THE RESOURCES TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE?

PROVIDERS NOT GETTING ENOUGH MONEY BACK OR THERE AREN'T ENOUGH PROVIDERS?

HOW DO YOU SEE THE INFRASTRUCTURE HANDLING THIS?

>> WELL, I MEAN, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION, ERIC.

YOU KNOW, I THINK WHAT IT'S REALLY GOING TO TAKE IS A LOT OF COLLABORATION, RIGHT, AS WE THINK ABOUT THE IMPACT OF FRAUD ON OUR HUMAN SERVICES PROGRAMS IN THE STATE, WE THINK ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE COMMUNITY AS FAR AS I.C.E.

OCCUPATION AND HARASSMENT, AGGRESSION AGAINST MINNESOTANS AND A LOT OF MINNESOTANS WHO ALREADY ARE STRUGGLING TO ACCESS RESOURCES.

YOU KNOW, I THINK IT REALLY BEHOOVES US TO GET STATE LEADERS, GET PROVIDERS, LEGITIMATE PROVIDERS TO THE TABLE AND UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, HOW WE MOVE FORWARD, HOW CAN WE NOT ONLY FOCUS ON IMPROVING PROGRAMS AND DELIVERY OF SERVICE BUT HOW CAN WE REALLY THINK ABOUT SYSTEM DESIGN, AND THAT'S A CONVERSATION THAT'S LONG OVERDUE WHEN WE THINK ABOUT MENTAL HEALTH IN MINNESOTA.

>> Cathy: YOU USED TO -- SUE ABDERHOLDEN USED TO SAY, WE REALLY DON'T HAVE A MENTAL HEALTH SUPPORT SYSTEM IN THE STATE OF MINNESOTA, WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

>> I AGREE.

WE DON'T HAVE A SYSTEM.

WE KNOW IT WORKS.

BUT WHAT WE REALLY NEED TO FOCUS ON -- ADVOCACY, AWARENESS, AND ACCESS.

AND IT'S GOING TO TAKE MORE THAN JUST FUNDING.

WE NEED TO INVITE MORE PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS CONVERSATION.

GENERATE AWARENESS, GET PARENTS AND SCHOOL LEADERS AND TEACHERS AND OTHER PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY INVOLVED TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY KNOW HOW TO ACCESS THESE RESOURCES AND WE REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT ARE THOSE CHALLENGES THAT ARE NOT JUST IN THE TWIN CITIES BUT IN GREATER MINNESOTA AS WELL.

>> Cathy: GETTING BACK TO THE KIDS, BECAUSE YOU MENTION THE KIDS THAT ARE REALLY HAVING TROUBLE BECAUSE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH I.C.E.

THERE ARE GRANDPARENTS WATCHING RIGHT NOW AND PARENTS, WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST?

HOW DO YOU TAMP DOWN THE FEAR THAT SOME OF THESE LITTLE KIDS HAVE AS THEY WATCH THEIR CLASSMATES, YOU KNOW, BEING DEPORTED?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I'VE HAD THE SAME CONVERSATION.

I HAVE AN 8 AND A 9-YEAR-OLD THAT ATTEND PUBLIC SCHOOLS HERE IN St.

PAUL.

AND THEY HAVE FRIENDS WHO ARE IMPACTED.

AND THAT'S A CONVERSATION I NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD HAVE TO HAVE.

YOU KNOW, WHERE WE'RE GUIDING PEOPLE ARE TOWARDS RESOURCES.

YOU CAN VISIT NAMIMN.ORG, FOLLOW OUR SOCIAL MEDIA, O GET ACCESS TO THOSE RESOURCES.

WE WANT O ENCOURAGE PEOPLE WHO ARE EXPERIENCING CRISIS OR KNOW SOMEBODY, A LOVED ONE OR A FRIEND WHO MIGHT BE TO CONNECT WITH 988, THAT'S A CONFIDENTIAL RESOURCE.

I KNOW THAT THERE ARE A OT OF PEOPLE, THERE'S AN UPTICK IN UTILIZATION OF THAT RESOURCE.

WE WANT TO CONTINUE TO PROMOTE THAT.

AND REALLY JUST ESTABLISH THAT DIALOGUE WITH YOUR KIDDOS, MAKE SURE THAT THEY KNOW THAT THAT CONVERSATION IS A SAFE ONE WITH YOU, AND I THINK JUST KEEP THAT CONVERSATION GOING AND MAKING SURE THAT YOU'RE GETTING THE INFORMATION FROM THE RIGHT RESOURCES.

>> Eric: WITH THE LEGISLATURE SET TO CONVENE HERE IN THREE WEEKS, I WONDER IF PART OF THE JOB IS TO MAKE SURE THAT YOUR ISSUES ARE BEFORE THE LEGISLATORS, THAT THEY PAY ATTENTION.

I ASSUME THAT'S A BIG PART OF YOUR JOB?

>> IT SURE IS.

AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK WHAT WE HAVE AN ADVANTAGE OF WHEN WE THINK OF MENTAL HEALTH IN MINNESOTA, IT REALLY IS A BIPARTISAN ISSUE.

SO WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE CONTINUING AT NAMI MINNESOTA TO ENGAGE EVERYBODY IN THAT CONVERSATION.

WE WILL FOCUS ON MEDICAID AND DOING EVERYTHING THAT WE CAN TO PERSEVERE THAT AS A RESOURCE.

IT'S THE LARGEST SOURCE OF FUNDING FOR MENTAL HEALTHCARE IN MINNESOTA.

AND WE'LL ALSO FOCUS ON WHAT WE CAN DO TO GET MORE RESOURCES INTO SCHOOLS ACROSS THE STATE.

THERE ARE SCHOOL-LINKED MENTAL HEALTH GRANTS.

AND THEN FOCUSING ON WORKFORCE AS WELL.

WE NEED MORE THERAPISTS, WE NEED MORE MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS IN THE FIELD ALL OVER THE STATE TO MAKE SURE THAT PARENTS AND CHILDREN ARE GETTING ACCESS TO THE RESOURCES THAT THEY NEED.

>> Cathy: WE WISH YOU WELL.

WE INVITE YOU BACK TO THE SHOW TO SEE HOW THINGS ARE GOING.

>> YOU CAN COUNT ON IT, CATHY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Cathy: ALL RIGHT.

TAKE CARE.

>> Eric: GOOD LUCK TO YOU.

ALL THE BEST TO YOU.

>> THANKS A LOT.

>> Cathy: THANKS.

>> ERIC: MINNESOTA IS STILL REELING FROM THE POLITICAL VIOLENCE THAT ROCKED THE STATE LAST JUNE.

SPEAKER EMERITA MELISSA HORTMAN, HER HUSBAND, MARK, AND THEIR DOG, GILBERT, WERE KILLED IN THEIR HOME BY SOMEONE IMPERSONATING A POLICE OFFICER.

HORTMAN WAS NOT THE ONLY LEGISLATOR TARGETED THAT DAY.

STATE SENATOR JOHN HOFFMAN AND HIS WIFE YVETTE WERE BOTH SHOT MULTIPLE TIMES IN THEIR HOME BY THE SAME SUSPECT AND SURVIVED.

SENATOR HOFFMAN HAS SPENT MONTHS RECOVERING AND IS GEARING UP TO RETURN TO THE LEGISLATURE NEXT MONTH.

AND WE'RE SO DELIGHTED TO HAVE YOU.

YOUR RECOVERY IS PRETTY MIRACULOUS TO ME.

>> THANKS, ERIC.

>> Eric: AND I WONDER, HAVE THE DOCTORS SAID HOW LONG IT MIGHT TAKE TO GET PHYSICALLY WELL, MAYBE EMOTIONALLY STABLE?

>> SO, RECOVERY ISN'T AN END GAME IN SOMETHING, RIGHT?

IT'S AN ONGOING PROCESS.

AND THE THING ABOUT RECOVERY IS IT'S NOT LINEAR, RIGHT?

NOTHING HAPPENS ON A TIMELINE, ERIC, BECAUSE THERE ARE REALLY GOOD DAYS, THERE ARE NOT SO GOOD DAYS.

SO I KEPT COMPLAINING ABOUT THE FACT THAT I STILL CAN'T PLAY DRUMS BECAUSE OF MY LEFT FINGER.

>> Eric: YEAH.

>> AND MY LEFT ARM, YOU KNOW, I WAS GOING TO SHOW UP HERE WITH MY DRUMSTICKS AND MAYBE WE COULD DO THAT.

>> Eric: ANOTHER TIME.

>> BUT IT'S NOT.

IT'S A PROCESS.

AND THIS IS SOMETHING I HAVE TO LEARN TO HAVE SOME TIME AND PATIENCE.

>> Cathy: YOU'VE PROBABLY HEARD THIS, RESEARCHERS FIND THAT SOME SURVIVORS OF TRAUMA CULTIVATE INNER STRENGTH, THEY GAIN A DEEPER APPRECIATION OF LIFE, THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THEIR SPIRITUALITY CHANGES AND DEEPENS AND THEY CALL THIS POST-TRAUMATIC GROWTH.

NOW I KNOW YOU'RE IN THE EARLY GOING OF YOUR RECOVERY, BUT HAVE YOU EXPERIENCED ANY OF THIS AT THIS POINT?

>> IT'S INTERESTING, THEY CALL THAT POST-TRAUMATIC GROWTH.

I'M STILL DEALING WITH POST-TRAUMATIC SYNDROME.

>> Cathy: SURE, EXACTLY.

>> I FIND THAT -- YOU START TO FIND OUT SOME THINGS THAT YOU USED TO DO.

LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN I WAS LAYING IN THE ICU, I SAID, LOTS OF TIME TO THINK, THINK ABOUT WHAT I WOULD BE DOING DIFFERENTLY, RIGHT?

TIME TO BE MORE PRESENT, RIGHT?

AND THAT'S THE THING THAT HITS ME.

AND THEN TO SEE THE THINGS THAT WERE HAPPENING WITHIN HUMAN SERVICES WORLD, NOT HAVING A SAY IN THAT REALLY BOTHERED ME.

THEN I SAID, WELL, NOT ONLY IS IT TIME TO BE, YOU KNOW, PRESENT, BUT IT'S ALSO TIME TO ENGAGE.

MOST PEOPLE WOULD WITHDRAW IN THAT SITUATION, RIGHT?

NO, IT'S TIME TO ENGAGE.

I SAID THAT AT THE DNC OPENING SPEECH AS WELL.

>> Eric: YOUR PLATE IS GOING TO BE FULL IN THE THAN 26 SESSION.

>> YEAH.

>> Eric: HUMAN SERVICES IS FRONT AND CENTER.

>> YUP.

>> Eric: HE FRAUD THAT HAS OCCURRED IN THE MEDICAID PROGRAMS.

HOW DO YOU PLAN TO ADDRESS IT WHEN THE SESSION PARTS?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS WE START, IT'S NOT WHETHER OR NOT FRAUD EXISTS, IT DOES EXIST, RIGHT?

DID WE GIVE THE DEPARTMENT THE PROPER TOOLS IN ORDER TO ADDRESS THAT?

AND OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS, YOU HAVE NINE PAGES OF STATUTORY AUTHORITY THAT WE'D GIVEN THE DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN SERVICES TO BE ABLE TO BE LASERRING IN ON THE GOOD ACTORS, LASERRING IN ON THE BAD ACTORS, DO SOME THINGS.

SO THE QUESTION REALLY REMAINS ON THE TABLE, WHAT DIDN'T WE GIVE YOU IN ORDER TO DO YOUR JOB MORE EFFECTIVELY?

>> Cathy: HOW DISAPPOINTED ARE YOU IN ALL THIS?

>> VERY DISAPPOINTED.

>> Cathy: YOU RODE HERD ON A LOT OF THIS.

YOU'VE BEEN AT A THOUSAND HEARINGS OVER SOCIAL SERVICES.

WHAT GOES THROUGH YOUR HEAD WHEN YOU SEE ALL OF THESE STORIES?

>> WHAT REALLY AFFECTS ME THE MOST IS THE FACT THAT THE CLIENT, THE ONE THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE RECEIVING THE SERVICES, YOU END UP GETTING CAUGHT UP IN ALL THE NOISE AND THEN YOU SAY, ALL RIGHT, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE CLIENT?

THE "WHY"?

THE QUESTION THAT I THROUGH THREE YEARS AGO WHEN I BECAME CHAIR, WE NEED TO DISCOVERY THE WHY WE DO WHAT WE DO, RIGHT?

AND IF WE LOSE ASPECT OF THE "WHY," THEN WE'VE LOST ASPECT ON EXACTLY WHY.

MINNESOTA'S RICH HISTORY, GOES BACK TO GUYS LIKE JIM RAM INSTEAD, DAVE DURENBERGER, YOU START TO NAME FOLKS LIKE THAT, IF IT WEREN'T FOR URENBERGER, WE WOULDN'T HAVE THE NATIONAL D.D.

ACT, RIGHT?

IT'S LEADERS LIKE THAT WERE ALWAYS GOING AT "WHY," AND HOW WE GET THIS TO THE PEOPLE THAT NEED IT THE MOST.

>> Eric: IS IT POSSIBLE, YOU USED THE WORD "LASER," TO MAKE SURE THAT THE BAD GUYS GUESS OUT OF THE PROCESS BUT THAT THE CLIENTS AND THE GOOD OPERATORS, YOU KNOW, STAY UT AND FLOURISH?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

HAVING A HAMMER APPROACH TO ANY KIND OF SYSTEMIC ISSUES, RIGHT, IS NOT A GOOD APPROACH.

AND I CONTEND THAT THERE'S NINE PAGES, I HAVE A STATUTORY AUTHORITY THAT WE'VE GIVEN, TO BE MORE LASER FOCUSED.

SO THE QUESTION THEN THAT COMES BACK, AND WE'LL AVE HEARINGS NEXT WEEK, IS, WHAT DIDN'T WE GIVE YOU ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT, RIGHT?

AND I THINK THAT LASER PIECE NEEDS TO BE REALLY REDISCOVERED ON THAT.

IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, NOT THAT I'M A LAWYER -- A LAWYER ONCE TOLD ME, YOU CAN'T HAVE AN OPINION, YOU'RE NOT A LAWYER, BUT IN THIS CASE, YOU KNOW, DID WE GOT GIVE YOU ENOUGH TOOLS IN YOUR TOOL BELT TO BE ABLE TO DO YOUR JOB?

>> Cathy: YOU WENT BACK TO THE CAPITOL AND HELD A BUNCH OF INTERVIEWS WITH THE MEDIA.

>> I DID.

>> Cathy: THANK YOU TO DOING THAT, BY THE WAY.

WHAT WAS IT LIKE TO STEP FOOT IN THE CAPITOL?

>> IT WAS THE FIRST IME EXAMINE IT WAS SO SURREAL TO BE -- AND IT WAS SO SURREAL TO BE THERE.

THERE'S A GRATITUDE, YOU KNOW, IF I WOULDN'T BE AT THAT MOMENT, RIGHT, I SAT BACK, AND I WENT, WOW, WHAT A BEAUTIFUL PLACE WE HAVE HERE.

AND IT REALLY IS.

IT WAS EMOTIONAL BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT I WAS THERE.

RIGHT?

>> Cathy: RIGHT.

>> SO THERE AS A LOT OF GRATITUDE ABOUT BEING THERE.

>> Cathy: WHAT DO YOU THINK OF SOME OF THESE IDEAS TO FORTIFY THE CAPITOL, TO STRENGTHEN SECURITY AT THE CAPITOL?

DO YOU THINK IS IT WORKABLE, IS IT TOO LITTLE TOO LATE?

WHAT'S YOUR THOUGHT?

>> YOU KNOW, OUR STATE PATROL ARE A GIFT TO THE STATE OF MINNESOTA.

AND THEIR PRESENCE AT THE STATE CAPITOL REALLY STOPS PEOPLE FROM BEING BAD ACTORS, ALWAYS HAS BEEN.

BUT IF THEY NEED MORE TOOLS IN ORDER FOR THEM TO DO THEIR JOB MORE EFFECTIVELY, ABSOLUTELY.

YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU FACE A NINE-MILLILITER BARETTA IN YOUR NOSE AND YOU'RE SAYING, AM I GOING TO LIVE ONE MORE DAY, YOU SAY, GUESS WHAT, I DON'T WANT THAT OPPORTUNITY EVER AGAIN, AND I WOULDN'T WISH IT ON ANYBODY ELSE IN THIS STATE.

SO, IF IT MEANS OUR TROOPERS ARE SAYING, BRING ON THE METAL DETECTORS AND GIVE US A BIT MORE FORTITUDE, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO GIVE THAT TO THEM.

THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD -- >> Eric: ARE YOU A RELIGIOUS GUY?

>> WELL, I GUESS, I GUESS, WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO, I GREW UP HALF CATHOLIC, HALF JEWISH, AND MY MOM IS OW A LUTHERAN, LUETH CATH-A-JEW.KE ME?- >> Eric: ELL, YOU SURVIVED FOR A REASON.

>> Cathy: SERIOUSLY, THOUGH, YOU'RE QUESTIONS NOT A BAD ONE.

EVERYBODY'S GOT A PURPOSE IN LIFE.

HAS IT CHANGED SINCE THIS HORRIBLE THING HAPPENED TO YOU?

>> YOU IT BACK, IF I HAD ONE MORE DAY TO DO IT, WHAT WOULD I BE DOING, RIGHT IN THE AND THAT'S THE ISSUE, DO I WITHDRAW OR DO I NGAGE?

AND THEN I'VE GOT TO ENGAGE BECAUSE WE LOST SIGHT IN ALL THE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE RECEIVING SERVICES, GRANDPA AND GRANDMA IN THE NURSING HOME, GRANDMA AND GRANDPA THAT ARE RECEIVING SERVICES IN THEIR HOME, WHAT ARE WE DOING TO ENSURE THAT EVERYTHING IS PERFECT FOR THEM.

>> Cathy: I GOTTA ASK YOU, HOW'S YOUR WIFE AND YOUR DAUGHTER, HOW'S YOUR FAMILY?

>> WE ARE TAKING ONE DAY AT A TIME, ONE MOMENT AT A TIME, CATHY.

AGAIN, IT'S NOT LINEAR.

>> Cathy: IT'S NEVER LINEAR.

THAT'S WHAT LIFE IS.

>> YEAH.

>> Eric: THANKS SO MUCH OR COMING OVER, WE LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS IN 2026.

>> Cathy: GLAD YOU'RE HERE.

>> IT'S ALWAYS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> Eric: THANK YOU, Mr.

CHAIRMAN.

>> ERIC: ALL WEEK LONG THE MINNESOTA STATE CAPITOL BROUGHT TOGETHER LEADERS FROM PUBLIC SAFETY, HEALTH AND THE COMMUNITY TO COUNTER IMMIGRATION ACTIONS.

OUR MARY LAHAMMER ALSO SPOKE WITH FORMER GOVERNORS WHO ARE ADVISING THE CURRENT GOVERNOR THROUGH THIS DIFFICULT TIME AND HAS THIS SPECIAL REPORT.

>> Mary: LAW ENFORCEMENT LEADERS LINED UP AT THE CAPITOL ABOUT CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATIONS AGAINST HEIR OWN OFF-DUTY OFFICERS BY I.C.E.

AGENTS.

>> WHEN THEY BOXED HER IN, THEY DEMANDED HER PAPERWORK OF WHICH SHE'S A U.S.

CITIZEN AND CLEARLY WOULD NOT HAVE ANY PAPERWORK.

>> WE'VE HAD EMPLOYEES FOR OUR CITY THAT HAVE EXPERIENCED SOME OF THE SAME THINGS.

THANKFULLY, NOT WITH FIREARMS DRAWN, BUT TRAFFIC STOPS THAT WERE CLEARLY OUTSIDE THE BOUNDS OF WHAT FEDERAL AGENTS ARE ALLOWED TO DO.

>> I AM SEEING AND EARING ABOUT PEOPLE IN HENNEPIN COUNTY STOPPED, QUESTIONED, AND HARASSED SOLELY BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN.

>> Mary: DOCTORS STOOD TOGETHER AT THE CAPITOL TO SHARE THE IMPACT ON THEIR STAFF AND COMMUNITY.

>> OUR HEALTHCARE WORKFORCE IS EXTREMELY DIVERSE.

THE PEOPLE TAKING CARE OF OUR PATIENTS ARE SOMALI, THEY ARE LATINA.

>> THE FIELD IS SO INTENSE, PEOPLE RE SCARED OF PICKING UP THE PHONE EVEN.

>> Mary: STUDENTS AND ACTIVISTS SAID WHY THEY'RE WALKING OUT AND PARTICIPATING IN A GENERAL STRIKE.

>> I'VE SEEN STUDENTS BE SO, SO BRAVE, STUDENTS WHO HAVE SEEN THEIR CLASSMATES LIVE IN FEAR OF DEPORTATION, STUDENTS WHO HAVE SEEN THEIR CLASSMATES HAVE TO STAY HOME, STUDENTS HAVE GOTTEN TEAR GASED, DECIDE THAT THEY WOULD RATHER STAND UP TO WHAT IS HAPPENING THAN TO STAY HOME IN FEAR.

>> ONE OF THE LEVERAGES OF POWER THAT WE DO HAVE AT OUR DISPOSAL IS NOT JUST PEOPLE POWER, BUT ALSO MONEY.

AND WE'RE GOING TO USE THAT TO ENSURE THAT AS MINNESOTANS, WE'RE REFUSING WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE IN OUR STATE, AND, AGAIN, WE ARE URGING OTHER PARTS OF COUNTER TO ALSO STAND WITH US AND FIGHT BACK, AN ECONOMIC STRIKE AS WELL.

>> I.C.E.

GETS BEAT UP BY STUPID PEOPLE FROM LEADERSHIP IN MINNESOTA.

WE ACTUALLY ARE HELPING MINNESOTA SO MUCH, BUT THEY DON'T APPRECIATE IT.

>> Mary: GOVERNOR WALZ INVITED PRESIDENT TRUMP TO COME SEE MINNESOTA HIMSELF FIRSTHAND AND HELP RESTORE CALM AND ORDER HERE.

THE VICE PRESIDENT VISITED THE STATE.

>> I HAVEN'T TALKED TO GOVERNOR WALZ ON THIS PARTICULAR TRIP.

>> Mary: AND FORMER GOVERNORS WEIGHED IN ON A NEW PODCAST COMING SOON.

>> WHEN I SPOKE TO GOVERNOR WALZ, I GAVE HIM Y SYMPATHY.

I SAID, NOT ONLY ARE YOU NOW DEALING WITH THIS MESS, CREATED BY THE PRESIDENT, YOU ALSO HAD TO DEAL WITH THE PANDEMIC.

IN YOUR TERMS.

I SAID, I WOULDN'T HAVE WISHED THIS ON ANYBODY.

I WOULDN'T EVEN WISH IT ON TO A REPUBLICAN.

[ Laughter ] >> Mary: WHAT ADVICE DID YOU GIVE HIM?

I KNOW GOVERNORS ARE TALKING TO HIM.

WHAT ADVICE DID YOU GIVE HIM?

>> I TOLD HIM, THIS IS FOR THE SOUL OF AMERICA.

NOW, THE GOVERNOR'S WORRIED SOMEONE ELSE IS GOING TO DIE, WHICH WE ALL SHOULD BE.

BUT WHY SHOULD ANYONE BE DYING?

IF IT WEREN'T FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP, NO ONE WOULD BE DYING.

ON THE STREETS OF MINNEAPOLIS.

BUT IT IS WHAT IT IS.

NOW WE'VE GOT TO DEAL WITH IT.

IT'S A DIFFICULT, DIFFICULT SITUATION.

I AM ONE THAT HINKS -- LET ME THROW THIS OUT ON YOUR SHOW AND WE'LL GET SOME HEADLINES.

HOW ABOUT SINCE TRUMP DISLIKES MINNESOTA SO BAD AND WE'RE SO OUT OF CONTROL, LET'S JOIN CANADA?

>> I WOULD SUGGEST THE FOLLOWING, AND I'VE WRITTEN TO THE GOVERNOR ABOUT IT.

>> Mary: UM-HUM.

>> ONE, THE POLITICAL SYSTEM DOES NOT SPEAK FOR ALL OF MINNESOTA.

SO LET'S BRING IN ALL THE SEGMENTS OF MINNESOTA.

LET'S BRING IN THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY, THE RELIGIOUS LEADERS, THE NONPROFIT LEADERS, THE ACADEMIC LEADERS, LET'S BRING IN THE FARMERS, EVERYBODY.

AND FORM A COMMISSION.

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE KATHLEEN BLATZ, HIGHLY RESPECTED FORMER CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT, AND JEFF ETTINGER, FORMER PRESIDENT OF HORMEL, AND THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA, AS CHAIRS.

AND TRY TO GET THAT COMMITTEE TO DEFUSE THE SITUATION.

INSTEAD OF HAVING THE GOVERNOR AND THE PRESIDENT SQUARE OFF, WHICH IS ONLY GOING TO LEAD TO A FIGHT, LET'S HAVE THAT COMMISSION MEET WITH THE WHITE HOUSE.

>> ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THEY TEACH YOU IN LAW SCHOOL IS BEFORE YOU REACH A CONCLUSION, MARSHAL THE FACTS.

AND NOBODY DID IT HERE COMPLETELY.

THEY DID IT PARTIALLY.

AND, OF COURSE, THEY'RE ALL AFRAID TO TAKE ON THEIR OWN BASE, SO THEY'VE TO GO OUT AND VIRTUE SIGNAL TO THE BASE ORGANIZATIONS OR BASE ELEMENTS WITHIN THEIR PARTY.

AND THEN FROM A POLITICAL STANDPOINT, THERE'S A TIME AND PLACE TO DEBATE, AS YOU SAW WHEN I WAS MAJORITY LEADER, WE USED TO, YOU KNOW, VERBALLY KICK THE CRAP OUT OF EACH OTHER ON THE HOUSE FLOOR, THEN WE'D GO OUT FOR BEERS AFTERWARDS.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO TRAGEDY, BIG MOMENTOUS, HISTORIC MOMENTS IN THE STATE R NATION'S HISTORY, WE NEED OUR LEADERS TO RISE UP AND BE HELPFUL, HOPEFUL AND ASPIRATIONAL, AND THEY DID NONE OF THAT.

♪♪ >> CATHY: OPERATION METRO SURGE CONTINUES TO BE SCRUTINIZED AS VICE PRESIDENT JD VANCE BASHED DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP ON THURSDAY.

SENATOR KLOBUCHAR HAS FILED PAPERS TO RUN FOR GOVERNOR BUT HAS MADE NO ANNOUNCEMENTS.

JUST TWO OF THE TOPICS WE'LL COVER WITH THIS WEEK'S POLITICAL PANEL.

DFLERS UP FIRST.

JAVIER MORILLO IS A LONGTIME UNION AND PARTY ACTIVIST AND A FORMER NATIONAL COMMITTEEMAN FOR THE DNC.

ALYSEN NESSE, PARTY LOYALIST AND LOBBYIST UP AT THE CAPITOL.

REPUBLICANS WITH US TONIGHT, AMY FREDERIKSEN IS A FORMER STATE SENATE MAJORITY LEADER, NOW A LOBBYIST.

ANDY BREHM IS A FORMER PRESS SECRETARY FOR U.S.

SENATOR NORM COLEMAN, NOW AN ATTORNEY.

PRETTY INTERESTING TO HEAR THE FORMER GOVERNORS SPEAK.

GOVERNOR VENTURA THINKS WE'RE IN A ERIOUS POLITICAL FIGHT FOR THE SOUL OF AMERICA.

WHAT DO YOU THINK, SENATOR?

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT'S GREAT.

I APPRECIATED WHAT ALL OF THEM, ACTUALLY, HAD TO SAY.

AND KIND OF DEMONSTRATES WHY THEY ARE THE LEADERS THAT THEY ARE, RIGHT?

I THOUGHT THAT GOVERNOR PAWLENTY WAS SPOT ON WHEN HE TALKED ABOUT HOW WHEN YOU FIRST EXAMINE SOMETHING, LIKE LET'S TALK ABOUT TWO WEEKS AGO WITH THE SHOOTING OF RENEE GOOD, YOU MARSHAL THE FACTS, NEITHER SIDE DID THAT.

THAT'S WHAT STRUCK ME.

IMMEDIATELY JUMPED IN WITH COMMENTS WITHIN, YOU KNOW, AN HOUR OR TWO OF THE NEWS BEING OUT THERE.

AND I THINK THAT THAT KIND OF LEADERSHIP HAS BEEN REALLY LACKING.

I'M HOPING THAT WE SEE SOME CHANGES GIVEN THE VISIT OF THE VICE PRESIDENT WITH THE ATTORNEY GENERAL.

I'M SEEING SOME SIGNS THAT MAYBE WE'RE SEEING SOME SANITY RETURN.

>> Cathy: BECAUSE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL DID TALK TO THE VICE PRESIDENT, EVIDENTLY.

>> YES.

>> Cathy: GO AHEAD.

>> GOOD, I MEAN, I THINK THE MORE CONVERSATIONS THAT CAN BE HAD, THE BETTER.

THAT'S BEEN LACKING TOO.

THIS IS NOT A TIME FOR POLITICS.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS -- THERE'S A LOT OF WISDOM THERE WITH THE FORMER GOVERNORS.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S GOOD POINTS ON BOTH SIDES OF THIS.

I MEAN, I THINK WE ARE SEEING EVIDENCE THAT I.C.E.

IS REALLY GOING BEYOND WHAT I THINK MOST MINNESOTANS, MOST AMERICANS WOULD LIKE IT TO DO.

AT THE SAME TIME WE HAVE AN IMMIGRATION CRISIS, BROUGHT ABOUT BY THE LAST ADMINISTRATION THAT NEEDS TO BE DEALT WITH THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ANT DEALT WITH AND THEY SAID SO VERY CLEARLY IN THE LAST ELECTION.

TOUGH TIMES.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, WE'VE HAD AN IMMIGRATION CRISIS FOR 40 SOME YEARS, BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE A FUNCTIONING IMMIGRATION SYSTEM.

AND THE LAST FOUR YEARS WERE CHALLENGE AND HE RHETORIC WERE REALLY HIGH, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT IMMIGRATION, AND THIS ISN'T -- I'M SORRY -- I'M GETTING A LITTLE OO EMOTIONAL.

YEAH.

>> I WAS OUT IN THE COLD TODAY, AND PROUD TO BE A MINNESOTAN, HONESTLY.

I THINK THAT THE WAY THAT MINNESOTANS ARE STANDING UP FOR DUE PROCESS, THE WAY THAT MINNESOTANS ARE DEFENDING THEIR NEIGHBORS, TO ME, I HONESTLY, THIS WEEK, THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT WOULD IT HAVE BEEN LIKE IF IN THE 1930s GERMANS HAD RISEN UP AGAINST THEIR GOVERNMENT HEN THEY WERE GOING AFTER THEIR NEIGHBORS.

IT HAS BEEN TRULY AN ASTONISHING AND BEAUTIFUL THING TO WATCH.

BECAUSE, AS ALYSEN WAS SAYING, THE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM HAS BEEN GROWN A VERY LONG TIME.

THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE ENTIRE INDUSTRIES THAT ARE -- THAT DEPEND ON IMMIGRANT LABOR.

THIS IS WHY, YOU KNOW, I NEVER TIRE OF SAYING, IF YOU ENJOY WHAT I.C.E.

IS DOING, YOU'RE AGAINST ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, LIVE BY YOUR VALUES AND BOYCOTT FOOD BECAUSE IF YOU ATE TODAY, YOU BENEFITTED FROM THE LABOR OF MMIGRANTS.

AND WE CANNOT FIX THIS PROBLEM THROUGH DEPORTATION ALONE, WHICH IS WHAT WE ARE SEEING, LIKE, WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS A MESS CREATED BY ONLY TRYING TO DO THINGS THROUGH EPORTATION.

>> Cathy: I'M WONDERING, WE ASKED THE QUESTION TO LARRY JACOBS, ABOUT THE POLL, THE CNN/"NEW YORK TIMES" POLL WAS NOT GREAT FOR THE PRESIDENT IN TERMS OF WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING ABOUT IMMIGRATION AND WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH I.C.E., RIGHT, AND THE OPTICS DON'T LOOK GREAT.

HOW DO YOU THINK THIS ?ENDZ I MEAN, THE FACT THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND VICE PRESIDENT VANCE TALKED IS GOOD, BUT HOW DOES THIS WHOLE THING PLAY OUT?

>> RIGHT.

WELL, AGAIN, I THINK THAT IT'S GOING TO COME DOWN O THE ADMINISTRATION AND THE WALZ ADMINISTRATION FINDING SOME KIND OF COMMON GROUND.

THEY HAVE TO.

AND I THINK ABOUT THIS IN ANY KIND OF SITUATION WHERE THE SIDES CAN BE SO AT EACH OTHER, YOU KNOW, THERE'S FAMILIES FIGHTING OR DIVORCES, AT SOME POINT YOU HAVE TO COME TO THE TABLE AND YOU HAVE TO JUST ACKNOWLEDGE.

THERE'S A COUPLE THINGS.

YOU KNOW, JAVIER, I TEND TO AGREE, RIGHT, THE IMMIGRATION HAS BEEN BROKEN FOR DECADES.

IT'S NOT ALLOWING US TO BE THE COUNTRY THAT WE'RE PROUD TO BE, WHICH IS FOLKS COME IN AND THEY EMIGRATE TO THIS COUNTRY, BUT ALSO, THE LAST FOUR YEARS OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, BY THEIR OWN NUMBERS, THE ILLEGAL CROSSINGS AT THE BORDER WERE UNMANAGEABLE EVERY SINGLE DAY AFTER HIS INAUGURATION BY HIS OWN NUMBERS, UNMANAGEABLE.

SO WE DO HAVE -- ITCHING IT'S -- I THINK -- I THINK BOTH SIDES HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE IS SOME RUTH ON BOTH SIDES AND THEN ACTUALLY GET TO THE -- TAKE OUT THE POLITICAL RHETORIC AND GOAT A SOLUTION BECAUSE IT IS A CRISIS ON A NUMBER OF LEVELS.

>> Eric: ONE CLASSIC APPROACH TO THIS COULD BE PRESIDENT TRUMP DECLARES VICTORY AND GOES HOME.

>> SURE.

I MEAN, I THINK -- WHEN PEOPLE LOOK AT THE SITUATION HERE RIGHT NOW, THEY GO, THIS IS NOT GOOD.

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY WANTS A CONTINUATION OF THIS CHAOS.

IT'S DANGEROUS.

IT'S RIPPING A STATE, CITY, AND COUNTRY APART, FOR THAT MATTER.

YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS A POINT IN THE SENSE THAT OUR LEADERS IN THIS STATE SAID, WE'RE GOING TO BE SANCTUARY CITIES, WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE HELPFUL AT ALL N TERMS OF ENFORCING FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAW.

>> Eric: THE VICE PRESIDENT TALKED ABOUT COOPERATION SEVERAL TIMES.

>> SO THERE WAS NO CHOICE, IF WE WANT TO HAVE ENFORCEMENT OF IMMIGRATION LAWS, AND MOST AMERICANS WOULD LIKE THAT, I.C.E.

HAD TO COME IN HERE.

>> THAT IS ABSURD.

I'M SORRY.

>> NO, IT IS NOT.

>> YES, IT ABSOLUTELY -- >> HOW IS IT ABSURD?

>> BECAUSE IT IS NOT THE JOB OF LOCAL JURISDICTIONS TO ENFORCE FEDERAL LAWS.

AND THAT IS ALL SEPARATION ORDINANCES DO.

THAT IS ALL THEY DO.

>> THAT'S YOUR OPINION.

>> AND -- BUT IT'S THE LAW HERE.

>> NO, BUT THAT'S YOUR OPINION.

>> OTHER CITIES HAVE WORKED WITH I.C.E.

AGAIN, IF I HAD BEEN MAYOR OF MINNEAPOLIS, WHICH, OF COURSE, I'LL NEVER BE, IF I WERE, OKAY, LET'S MAKE A DEAL, WE'LL HELP YOU GET THE CRIMINALS, WE'LL HELP YOU GET THE REALLY BAD GUYS.

>> THEY'RE SHOOTING PEOPLE LIKE RENEE GOOD IN THE FACE.

>> JAVIER, WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, I THINK WE HAVE TO GET AWAY FROM THE POLITICS AND TRY TO FOCUS ON THE -- >> ALYSEN, GET IN HERE.

>> PREVIOUSLY WORKING FOR THE CITY OF MINNEAPOLIS, GOING THROUGH ORDER I UNDERSTAND, IT IS OUTSIDE THEIR JURISDICTION.

THE STATE OF MINNESOTA IS COOPERATING WITH I.C.E.

THE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS, WHICH IS THE APPROPRIATE AGENCY TO COORDINATE WITH I.C.E., BECAUSE THEY RUN OUR PRISONS, HENNEPIN COUNTY RUNS THE JAILS, THE CITY OF MINNEAPOLIS DOES NOT.

IT ERODES TRUST, IF SOMEONE IS BEING ABUSED IN THEIR HOME AND THEY'RE TOO SCARED TO CALL 911 BECAUSE THEY MAY -- BECAUSE THEIR STATUS IS IN QUESTION, IT ERODES TRUST OF LOCAL POLICING THAT THEY ARE WORKING SO HARD TO STRENGTHEN.

>> Eric: WE BETTER TALK ABOUT MICHELLE LATOY THAT AND AMY CLOAB SURE.

>> SHE'S RUNNING FOR U.S.

SENATE, WHICH IS GOING TO BE A GAME CHANGER, NOT JUST ON THE GOP SIDE BUT A SHAKE-UP ON THE DFL SIDE AS WELL, BECAUSE IT'S AN ACTUAL CANDIDATE RUNNING AND THAT'S GOING TO PLAY INTO THAT BIG ENDORSEMENT PRIMARY BATTLE ON THE DFL SIDE.

AND THEN AMY KLOBUCHAR HAS NOT OFFICIALLY ANNOUNCED, WE'RE HEARING PERHAPS NEXT WEEK.

BUT SHE FILED THE PROPER PAPERWORK.

SO MOVING FROM D.C.

BACK HOME TO MINNESOTA TO RUN FOR GOVERNOR, IN THE WAKE OF TIM WALZ SAYING HE WILL NOT RUN AGAIN, ANOTHER GAME CHANGER IN THAT RACE.

>> Eric: WHAT DO YOU THINK, ALYSEN?

>> I'M EXCITED.

THERE'S NO MORE POPULAR ELECTED OFFICIAL IN MINNESOTA THAN AMY KLOBUCHAR SO LET'S GO.

>> Eric: HOW ABOUT MICHELLE TAFOYA.

>> I THINK SHE'S FANTASTIC.

I SAW HER AUNCH A VIDEO, SHE'S GOT A LOT OF ENERGY, SMART, ARTICULATE.

MINNESOTA REPUBLICANS HAVE STRUGGLED IN TERMS OF OUR STATEWIDE CANDIDATES, LOOKING LIKE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE SOME REALLY SOLID ONES.

>> Cathy: IS SHE PRO CHOICE?

>> YES.

YES.

WHICH IS GOING TO BE AN INTERESTING DYNAMIC WITHIN THE GOP ENDORSEMENT AND PRIMARY PROCESS.

>> YEAH.

AND I THINK THIS ELECTION IS GOING TO BE ABOUT WHO'S EXCITED, ABOUT WHOSE BASES ARE EXCITED TO URN OUT.

AND YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A VERY FRACTURED REPUBLICAN BASE FOR -- ON ISSUES LIKE ABORTION, ON THE FACT THAT, LIKE, MICHELLE TAFOYA HAS BEEN CRITICAL OF DONALD TRUMP IS GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE ALL THAT BACK AND KISS THE RING AS EVERY REPUBLICAN IN PUBLIC OFFICE NOW HAS TO DO.

SO THERE'S A REASON WHY REPUBLICANS HAVEN'T WON STATEWIDE IN A VERY LONG TIME BECAUSE THEY CAN'T MUSTER -- THEY CAN'T PUT TOGETHER A CANDIDATE WHO HAS ENOUGH APPEAL TO THE URBAN CORE.

>> Eric: THE FEBRUARY 3rd PRECINCT CAUCUSES BE MEANINGFUL?

>> WELL, AT THE DFL, AT EAST THERE WILL BE A POLL OF POTENTIAL GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATES.

SO WE'LL GET TO SEE AFTER THAT HOW THOSE THAT HAVE ANNOUNCED DO.

>> AGAIN, THINK WE'RE KIND OF MOVING AWAY FROM THAT CAUCUS OOM.

CAUCUS SYSTEM.

I THINK THAT MOST STATES HAVE MOVED TO A PRIMARY.

>> Eric: REPUBLICANS HAVE DEFENDED THAT VERY STRONGLY.

>> I AGREE.

AND I HAVE ALSO DEFENDED AND LIKE THE ENDORSEMENT.

BUT IT HAS BEEN FAILING.

AND IT HAS NOT PRODUCED CANDIDATES THAT CAN ACTUALLY WIN AND IT'S BEEN REFLECTIVE OF THE GOP PARTY AT LARGE.

WE REALLY HAVE SOME PARTY INSIDERS GETTING TOGETHER, MAKING A DECISION FOR LITERALLY TENS OF THOUSANDS AND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF MANS.

>> Eric: SPEAKER DEMUTH THE FRONTRUNNER ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, DO WE KNOW THAT YET?

>> SEEMS SO.

WE'VE GOT A GOOD -- SHE'S RUNNING A GOOD CAMPAIGN.

WE'VE GOT A GOOD BENCH.

GOOD, HEALTHY COMPETITION, THAT BENEFITS US.

YOU'RE SEEING THAT IN THESE DEBATES, DIFFERENT STRAW POLLS COMING OUT IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

I THINK THAT BENEFITS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

A LOT OF REALLY GOOD CANDIDATES.

>> Eric: HOPE YOU'LL JOIN US THE REST OF THE YEAR BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO BE VERY INTERESTING AND IMPORTANT.

>> Cathy: TO SAY THE LEAST.

>> GOOD TO HAVE JOHN HOFFMAN BACK.

>> Cathy: GREAT TO TALK WITH HIM.

>> Eric: GREAT TO SEE HIM.

THANKS A LOT, GUYS, GREAT STUFF.

>> YOU KNOW, NOW THAT WE'RE ACTUALLY UP HERE, I TOTALLY GET WHAT YOU WERE SAYING ABOUT HOW THE CAPITOL LOOKS GREAT FROM A DISTANCE.

BUT AS YOU GET A LITTLE CLOSER, YOU START TO SEE DAMAGE.

>> WATER HAS COME DOWN FROM THE UPPER DOME, AND ONCE IT STARTS GETTING INTO THIS PLASTER AREA IS WHERE WE REALLY START SEEING THE DAMAGE BECAUSE PLASTER AND WATER REALLY DON'T GO TOGETHER.

>> CATHY: DAVID GILLETTE AND MARY LAHAMMER SPENT SEVERAL YEARS DOCUMENTING THE RENOVATION OF THE STATE CAPITOL BUILDING.

OKAY, MYSTERY BUFFS, GATHER ROUND.

IT IS TIME FOR THE FIRST INDEX FILE QUESTION OF 2026.

FOR THIS WEEK'S EFFORT WE TRAVEL BACK IN TIME TO THE SPRING OF 1966.

WELL-KNOWN TELEVISION PERSONALITY JOHNNY CARSON ENGAGES IN A "TONIGHT SHOW" "PERFORMANCE" WITH PROPS THAT BOOSTS THE BUSINESS OF A LESSER-KNOWN MINNESOTAN.

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WHAT MINNESOTA PRODUCT DID JOHNNY CARSON PLAY WITH ON THE "TONIGHT SHOW"?

PLAY WITH.

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THIS WEEK BACK IN 2013 THE MOTHER BANJO BAND STOPPED BY STUDIO B. HERE THEY ARE PERFORMING "WITNESS," A SONG THEY ORIGINALLY WROTE AND PERFORMED AT A FRIEND'S WEDDING.

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