AND GEORGE PACKER, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, WALTER.

>> RIGHT BEFORE THESE MID-TERM ELECTIONS, YOU WROTE A PIECE IN "THE ATLANTIC" CALLED "THE GREAT DATA CENTER REBELLION. "

BOY, YOU TURNED OUT TO BE RIGHT.

THE ELECTION REALLY WAS A REBELLION PARTLY BECAUSE OF DATA CENTERS.

BUT EXPLAIN TO ME WHY IS THERE THIS BACKLASH AGAINST DATA CENTERS?

>> WELL, I CERTAINLY DIDN'T DISCOVER IT.

IT HAD BEEN GOING ON FOR A GOOD PART OF A YEAR.

I WAS READING ABOUT THESE MORATORIUMS BEING PASSED BY LOCAL COMMUNITIES IN WISCONSIN, IN TEXAS.

TEXAS WAS INTERESTING.

I HAD NO IDEA THAT THERE WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, THE LAND OF YOUR OLD SUBJECT ELON MUSK --THAT THERE WOULD BE A REBELLION AGAINST THE INCREDIBLE CONSTRUCTION BOOM OF THESE MASSIVE DATA CENTERS IN TEXAS.

I FOUND A SMALL TOWN IN IOWA RIGHT ON THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER CALLED CLINTON THAT'S SORT OF A FADING AGRICULTURAL INDUSTRIAL TOWN.

THERE USED TO BE A LOGGING CENTER AND THEN BECAME AGRICULTURE PROCESSING AND HAS ABOUT 24,000 PEOPLE AND HAD A DATA CENTER HEADED THEIR WAY.

SO I WENT OUT THERE JUST IN TIME TO ATTEND COUNCIL MEETINGS AND TALK TO SOME OF THE LEADERS OF BOTH THE OPPOSITION TO THE DATA CENTER AND THE LOCAL OFFICIALS AND SORT OF CHAMBER OF COMMERCE TYPES WHO WANTED IT.

AND WHAT I FOUND, WALTER, WAS THAT THERE WERE LOTS OF COMPLAINTS ABOUT WATER, NOISE, POWER CONSUMPTION, JUST THE MASSIVE EYESORE OF A 832 FOOTBALL FIELDS.

THAT WOULD BE THE SCALE OF THE AREA WHERE THIS DATA CENTER WOULD COME.

SOMETHING LIKE 11 MILLION SQUARE FEET.

BUT IT WOULD BE RIGHT IN THESE CORN FIELDS WITH HOUSES NEARBY ON THE WESTERN SIDE OF CLINTON.

BUT WHAT WAS REALLY STRIKING TO ME WAS THE CORE OF THE OPPOSITION WAS THESE FOLKS FELT COMPLETELY IGNORED.

THIS WAS BEING RAMMED DOWN THEIR THROATS WITH LOTS OF NDAs AND PRIVATE MEETINGS, SO THEY HAD TO KIND OF DIG IT ALL OUT WITH FOIA REQUESTS TO FIND OUT WHAT WAS EVEN HAPPENING.

IT SEEMED AS IF THEY WERE NOT BEING CONSIDERED.

THEIR CONTROL HAD BEEN TAKEN AWAY FROM THEIR OWN COMMUNITY.

AND THAT WAS THE --I'D SAY THE PSYCHOLOGICAL ROOT OF THE REBELLION WAS THE SENSE THAT THESE GIANT CORPORATIONS, ENTITIES FROM FAR AWAY WERE COMING INTO THEIR TIME WITHOUT A BUY OR LEAVE AND WE'RE GOING TO CHANGE THEIR LIVES FOREVER.

AND I WOULD SAY THE SENSE OF THE LITTLE GUY BEING PUSHED AROUND BY THE BIG GUYS WAS A PRETTY FUNDAMENTAL EMOTION IN THIS PAST MID-TERM ELECTION.

AND ALTHOUGH I DIDN'T TALK ABOUT POLITICS TOO MUCH WITH THE FOLKS IN CLINTON, I THINK THAT WAS KIND OF AT THE BOTTOM OF THE REBELLION.

>> BUT TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU THINK IT'S A PROXY JUST NOT BEING COMFORTABLE WITH ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND SUPER INTELLIGENCE AT ALL?

>> I PUSH THEM ON THAT BECAUSE I'M UNCOMFORTABLE WITH IT.

AND THEY WERE MIXED.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THEM WORKED IN TECH AND HAD NOTHING PER SE AGAINST TECH OR EVEN A. I. OTHERS WERE MORE SKEPTICAL OF IT.

I THINK THE MAIN THING, WALTER, IS NOT SO MUCH THAT THEY WERE OPPOSED TO TECHNOLOGICAL PROGRESS, BUT THAT THEY DIDN'T SEE WHAT WAS IN IT FOR THEM.

IF IT'S RURAL LECK TRIFIICATION LIKE IN THE '30S A FARM IS GOING TO KNOW WHAT'S THEY'RE GOING TO GET OUT OF IT.

BUT THE PEOPLE WITH A. I. DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING TO BE GOOD FOR THEM.

THEY THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE GOOD FOR INVESTORS AND GOOD FOR SILICON VALLEY.

AND MAYBE THEY HEARD ABOUT THE GREAT A. I. RACE WITH CHINA.

IT WAS ALL TOO FAR AWAY AND TOO REMOTE FROM THEIR LIVES FOR THERE TO BE A CASE FOR WHY THEY SHOULD BE WILLING TO LET THESE -- THESE MEGA-TECH COMPANIES COME IN AND CHANGE THEIR LIVES WITHOUT ANY OBVIOUS BENEFIT TO THEM.

>> BUT DO YOU THINK MAYBE THAT FEELING THAT THERE WAS NOTHING IN A. I. FOR THEM, AND IT WAS ALL A DANGER PARTLY COMES FROM THE A. I. COMPANIES AND THEIR LEADERS TALKING ABOUT THIS COULD LEAD TO DOOM AND HACKING AND ALL THAT INSTEAD OF EXPLAINING WHAT I THINK A. I. COULD DO --WHETHER IT'S IN TERMS OF DRUG DISCOVERIES, HEALTHCARE, AND THE MANY PRODUCTIVITY GAINS THAT COULD COME FROM IT.

>> WELL, I DON'T THINK THOSE ARGUMENTS HAD BECOME THE MAIN CONCERN OF PEOPLE IN CLINTON, IOWA.

I DIDN'T HEAR ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE EXTINCTION OF HUMANITY THAT WE'VE BEEN HEARING ABOUT FROM SOME OF THE YOUNG GUYS WHO WERE COMING OUT OF ANTHROPIC AND OpenAI AND TELLING THE WORLD THERE'S A 20% CHANCE THAT HUMANITY WILL BE WIPED OUT IN THE NEXT DECADE.

THAT WAS NOT WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT.

BUT I ALSO THINK A. I. IS THIS GIANT ABSTRACTION, AND A DATA CENTER IS A GIANT ABSTRACTION.

THERE'S NOBODY IN IT.

IT'S JUST A HUGE BANK OF COMPUTERS, ROW AFTER ROW OF COMPUTERS.

SO WHEN THEY HEAR ABOUT JOBS, THEY KNOW THERE'S SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT FARCICAL ABOUT THAT.

THE WHOLE THING HAS THIS QUALITY OF BOTH BEING TOO BIG TO GET, YOU KNOW, YOUR HANDS AROUND AND THEN TOO CLOSE TO BE COMFORTABLE WITH BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT IS GOING TO CREEP INTO EVERY CORNER OF THEIR LIFE.

A LOT OF THEM DID TALK ABOUT iPHONES AND WHAT THEY'VE DONE TO THEIR CHILDREN AND TO THEIR SORT OF FAMILY DYNAMICS.

AND WE'VE LIVED THROUGH THAT.

AND I THINK FOR THEM A. I. SEEMED LIKE IT MIGHT BECOME THE NEXT AND MUCH BIGGER VERSION OF THE DISRUPTIONS CAUSED BY THE iPHONE, WHICH AS WE KNOW, HAVE NOT BEEN ALTOGETHER WONDERFUL FOR FAMILIES AND FOR OUR SOCIETY.

>> WAIT, WAIT, WAIT.

YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT THAT SOME, COME IS THE DISRUPTIONS OF SOCIAL MEDIA.

THE DISRUPTION ON LIFE HASN'T BEEN GREAT.

YOU ACTUALLY THINK THIS REVOLT AGAINST DATA CENTERS AND THINGS IS PART OF A LARGER FEELING THAT OVER THE PAST 20 OR 30 YEARS SOCIAL MEDIA AND TECHNOLOGY HASN'T TOTALLY BEEN OUR FRIEND?

>> WELL, LOOK, WALTER, I'M A TECHNOPHOBE.

I MEAN, I HAVE TRIED TO STAY AWAY FROM SOCIAL MEDIA.

I HAVE A SMART PHONE, BUT I REGARD IT AS BEING SOMETHING OF A A FRENEMY IN MY POCKET.

I'M SUSPICIOUS OF MONETIZATION, WHICH IS WHAT TECHNOLOGY HAS BECOME ABOUT.

AND I AM DEEPLY SUSPICIOUS OF A. I. AS NOT JUST THE MONETIZATION OF MY ATTENTION BUT REPLACEMENT OF MY ATTENTION.

AND FOR ME AS A WRITER AND SOMEONE THAT THINKS FOR THEMSELVES.

THOSE THINGS DID COME UP.

IT WAS A LITTLE MORE ABSTRACT THAN THAT.

BUT I DON'T THINK THE TECH COMPANIES HAVE DONE THEMSELVES ANY FAVORS BY SAYING AT THE SAME TIME THIS COULD DESTROY US, BUT IT HAS TO HAPPEN AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

THAT'S A WEIRD MESSAGE TO HEAR.

AS IF THEY CAN'T HELP THEMSELVES.

THEY HAVE TO DO IT EVEN THOUGH THEY KNOW THERE'S THIS WHATEVER, 10, 20% CHANCE.

ALSO THEY KNEW THERE WAS TON OF MONEY POURING INTO THE ELECTION COMING FROM THE TECH INDUSTRY.

IT'S CONSIDERED --I THINK IT'S BEGINNING TO BECOME, WALTER, SOMETHING LIKE THE TRUSTS IN THE EARLY 1900s --THE OIL TRUSTS, JP MORGAN, THE RAILROAD TRUSTS.

THESE HUGE MONOPOLIES OR QUASI-MONOPOLIES WHO HAVE TOO MUCH POWER, ECONOMIC POWER, WHICH BECOMES POLITICAL POWER AND BEGINS TO PUSH PEOPLE AROUND AND OUT OF THEIR OWN LIVES SO THEY NO LONGER FEEL THEY HAVE CONTROL.

I THINK WE'RE SEEING A BIT OF A RETURN TO THAT TRANSITION FROM THE GILDED AGE TO THE PROGRESSIVE ERA.

AND THIS ELECTION WAS ABOUT ECONOMIC POPULISM.

AND DATA CENTERS BECAME I'D SAY MORE THAN ANYTHING A SYMBOL.

THEY BECAME A SYMBOL OF TOO MUCH CONCENTRATED POWER.

>> WELL, YOU TALK ABOUT THE GILDED AGE.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE CONCENTRATED POWER, THE ROBBER BARONS OF THE PEOPLE WHO CREATED THE RAILROADS AND THE TRUSTS AND BANKING TRUSTS AND ALL THAT.

WE GET TEDDY ROOSEVELT WHO PUTS IN EVERYTHING FROM GUARDRAILS, AGENCIES THAT REGULATE AS WELL AS SAFETY CONCERNS AS WELL AS BREAKING UP SOME OF THESE BIG COMPANIES, ANTITRUSTS.

AND HE WAS A REPUBLICAN AND LATER BECOMES A BULL MOOSE INDEPENDENT.

DO YOU THINK THIS IS A BIPARTISAN FEELING AND WE MIGHT SEE A HUNGER FOR SORT OF A BULL MOOSE LIKE TEDDY ROOSEVELT TO COME ALONG?

>> I THINK IF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY --AND I'M NOT GOING TO BE AN ADVISOR ON THEIR NEXT POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS.

BUT I THINK IF THEY WERE SMART THEY WOULD TAKE THE MESSAGE THAT TRUMP'S APPROACH, WHICH WAS CONTEMPT FOR THE COMMUNITIES THAT WERE RESISTING DATA CENTERS.

THAT CAME UP WHILE I WAS IN IOWA.

HE WAS SAYING, OH, THEY WANT TO REMIND POOR AND BACKWARD.

WELL, I WAS SITTING AT A TABLE WITH TRUMP VOTERS WHO HAD BECOME DISENCHANTED, AS THEY PUT IT, BECAUSE HE DIDN'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND WHY THEY HAD A PROBLEM WITH THIS.

IN FACT, HE SEEMED DISDAINFUL OF THEM.

IF I WERE A REPUBLICAN I WOULD MOVE AWAY FROM THAT POSITION AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE IT'S NOT GOING TO BE POPULAR.

AND IT'S NOT THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE.

AND THE SORT OF TECH WASHINGTON SYNERGY THAT HAPPENED IN THE FIRST TWO YEARS OF THE TRUMP SECOND TERM WITH SILICON VALLEY HAVING SO MUCH INFLUENCE OVER THE WHITE HOUSE HAS BEEN A DISASTER FOR THE REPUBLICANS.

AND I THINK THE SMART ONES WITH THEIR EAR TO THEIR CONSTITUENTS WILL KNOW THEY BE TO TRY TO DISENTANGLE THEMSELVES FROM THAT.

>> OKAY, SO THERE'S THIS BACKLASH AGAINST BUILDING DATA CENTERS AND MAYBE AGAINST TECH BUILDING IN GENERAL.

BUT THE REASON THE AMERICAN ECONOMY HAS BEEN STRONG AND JOB GROWTH HAS BEEN STRONG FOR THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS IS THIS BOOM IN AN A. I. ECONOMY OF DATA CENTERS BUT ALSO CONSTRUCTION.

DO YOU WORRY THAT THIS BACKLASH COULD HARM PERHAPS EVEN CRASH THE U. S. ECONOMY?

>> IN A SENSE YES.

IT COULD CERTAINLY CRASH THE STOCK MARKET, WHICH HAS BEEN PRETTY MUCH ENTIRELY HELD UP BY A. I. FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

BUT FOR AMERICANS WHO DON'T OWN STOCK OR DON'T HAVE MUCH, WHO ARE LIVING, YOU KNOW, ON WAGES, LIVING EVEN PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK, I'M NOT SURE THE BOOM --THE A. I. BOOM FROM THE BUILDOUT AND FROM THE STOCK MARKET HAS REALLY HELPED THEM.

IT HASN'T HAD MUCH REACH FOR THEM.

WE ALL KNOW NOW, YOU KNOW, IF WE DIDN'T BEFORE THAT GROCERY PRICES, GAS PRICES, DIESEL PRICES ALL HAVE GONE UP.

ELECTRICITY PRICES HAVE GONE UP.

THAT HASN'T BEEN TALKED ABOUT AS MUCH, BUT THAT'S SOMETHING I HEARD QUITE A BIT IN CLINT.

AND SO IN A SENSE IT'S HAPPENING IN SOME OTHER PLACE TO SOME OTHER PEOPLE FAR AWAY.

DIDN'T FEEL AS IF CLINTON WAS BENEFITTING FROM A STOCK MARKET BOOM OR A JOB BOOM, EVEN THOUGH UNEMPLOYMENT IS QUITE LOW IN IOWA.

INSTEAD IT FELT LIKE STAGNATION AND RISING PRICES, RISING INTEREST RATES THAT WERE MAKING PEOPLE LIVES EVEN MORE AND MORE OF A SQUEEZE.

SO NOT, YOU KNOW, DEPRESSION LEVEL OR RECESSION LEVEL.

BUT JUST WHEN YOU HEAR THAT IT'S --EVERYTHING IS GOING GREAT, WHICH IS WHAT THEY WERE HEARING FROM THE PRESIDENT AND YOU'RE NOT SEEING IT, AGAIN THAT MAKES YOU DISTRUST PEOPLE IN POWER.

>> TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU THINK RISING ECONOMIC INEQUALITY AND WEALTH INEQUALITY IS AT THE CORE OF THIS?

>> I THINK IT'S A HUGE PART OF IT.

I FELT THAT FOR YEARS AND YEARS.

I'VE WRITTEN QUITE A LOT ABOUT IT.

I THINK INEQUALITY IS AN INTERESTING CONCEPT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN SOME PEOPLE ARE DOING TERRIBLY AND OTHERS ARE DOING SPECTACULARLY WELL.

IT JUST MEANS THE GAP IS GROWING.

AND THAT'S BEEN TRUE OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS.

THE WEALTH OF THE WEALTHIEST HAS BEEN EXPLODING.

THE WEALTH OF THE BOTTOM HALF OR THIRD HAS BEEN PRETTY FLAT.

AND IT'S NOT AS THOUGH THE BOTTOM HAS FALLEN OUT AND WE'VE REENTERED A NEW DEPRESSION FOR HALF THE COUNTRY.

IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT.

IT'S THAT THEY SEE PRICES RISING.

THE THINGS THEY USED TO EXPECT TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD, THEY CAN'T.

AND THEN THEY SEE SORT OF OTHER PEOPLES SPECTACULAR WEALTH BEING SHOVED IN THEIR FACES INCLUDING THE SPENDING ON THE CAMPAIGNS.

THE INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT TECH INCLUDING MUSK WERE POURING INTO REPUBLICAN CAMPAIGNS.

I THINK IT'S JUST --CREATES A SENSE OF UNFAIRNESS AND OF BEING LEFT OUT, BEING LEFT BEHIND, AND OF THE DEMOCRACY THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE A DEMOCRACY THAT ALLOWS EVERYONE TO HAVE A PLACE AT THE TABLE IS NOT REALLY WORKING.

AND SO THEY VOTED FOR SOMETHING ELSE.

AND I THINK THAT'S BEEN COMING FOR A LONG TIME.

THE WAY I SEE IT, WALTER, WE HAD TEN YEARS OF CULTURE WARS THAT GREATLY BENEFITTED DONALD TRUMP.

AND I THINK THAT IS ENDING.

AND WE ARE NOW LOOKING AT A PERIOD OF IF NOT CLASS WAR, AT LEAST OF ECONOMIC POPULISM THAT'S GOING TO PUT PRESSURE ON THE UPPER CLASS AND THE 1%, THE 0.

1%.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT THIS FOR MORE THAN TWO DECADES.

I THINK "THE UNWINDING" CAME OUT IN 2013.

AND YOU FOLLOWED IT UP WITH "THE LAST BEST HOPE" FIVE YEARS AGO.

ALL OF THAT IS PART OF THIS ECONOMIC POPULISM SWELLING UP, BUT THERE WAS SOMETHING EVEN DEEPER IN THOSE BOOKS, WHICH IS YOUR NOTION OF A SHARED COMMON FAITH THAT'S NECESSARY TO DEMOCRACY.

DO YOU THINK THAT THAT'S IN PLAY RIGHT NOW?

>> I DO.

I REALLY DO.

AND I THINK ONE THING TRUMP WAS ABLE TO EXPLOIT WAS THIS WEAKENING FAITH IN DEMOCRACY THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE FELT LEFT OUT HAVE HAD.

IT TURNED OUT HE WAS A CON-MAN.

HE WASN'T GOING TO DO IT FOR THEM.

HE WASN'T GOING TO GIVE THEM WHAT HE SAID HE WOULD.

AND I THINK A LOT OF THEM FIGURED THAT OUT LAST WEEK.

BUT IT WAS JUST A ROLE WAITING TO BE PLAYED.

WHEN I WROTE "THE UNWINDING," IT WAS THREE YEARS BEFORE TRUMP WAS ELECTED THE FIRST TIME.

I DIDN'T SEE HIM COMING.

I WOULDN'T CLAIM AT ALL THAT I SAW HIM COMING.

I DID SEE A LANDSCAPE WHERE SOMEONE LIKE THAT, THE POPULUS DEMAGOGUE, LET'S SAY, WOULD BE ABLE TO GRAB THE GOLDEN RING BECAUSE THE ELITES OF BOTH PARTIES JUST DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN PARTS OF THE COUNTRY THAT THEY MAYBE DIDN'T HEAR FROM VERY OFTEN AND THAT THE MEDIA DIDN'T HEAR FROM OR GO TO OFTEN ENOUGH.

SO, YEAH, AT THE BOTTOM IT'S ABOUT A SOCIAL CONTRACT THAT SAYS WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE IN IT TOGETHER.

WE'RE SUPPOSED TO HAVE EQUAL VOICES AS AMERICANS.

WE'RE SUPPOSED TO HAVE A PLACE AT THE TABLE.

AND IF I'M WORKING HARD AND MY KIDS ARE GOING TO SCHOOL AND THEY'RE DOING WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO AND WE'RE STILL FALLING BEHIND AND OTHERS ARE LIVING THIS LIFE THAT I CAN'T EVEN RECOGNIZE OR UNDERSTAND, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN OUR DEMOCRACY IS DOING?

AND IN A WAY IT'S KIND OF A REMARKABLE THING THAT THERE'S STILL ENOUGH FAITH IN DEMOCRACY THAT PEOPLE CHOSE THE ONE WAY THEY STILL HAVE TO EXERCISE POWER, WHICH WAS THE BALLOT.

>> GEORGE PACKER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

>> MY PLEASURE, WALTER.

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