>> I'm Dr.

Benjamin F. Chavis Jr., and this is "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> If we kind of look at the whole concept of redlining, it's a psy-- it's a psychology.

It's a specialized psychology to say, I'm going to put a line around haves and have nots.

And that's been happening since the first boats landed on this continent.

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, we continue to look for ways to empower our customers.

We seek broad impact in our communities, and we're proud of the role we play for our customers and the U.S.

economy.

As a company, we are focused on supporting our customers and communities through housing access, small-business growth, financial health, and other community needs.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives.

American Petroleum Institute -- our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural gas and oil industry.

Learn more -- api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American -- dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to ensuring your money, health, and happiness live as long as you do.

>> We're very pleased to have one of our nation's leading neighborhood community development expert.

April De Simone, welcome to "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you for having me.

>> So you come from the Boogie Down Bronx.

>> I do.

[ Laughs ] from the Bronx to be an architect?

>> I think very young, just understanding how my built environment influenced me, whether it was the sound of food or music, block parties.

And then also being very keenly aware that I would go from pledging allegiance to a flag in school and coming home and realizing a tale of two Americas.

And from very young, I really understood what it meant to have and what it meant not to have.

And it influenced me about beauty.

How can we use architecture or design to create beautiful spaces that amplify our being, our belonging, where we live, what we are connected to?

And that really influenced my trajectory, both in the design practice and policy practice to say we have a duty.

>> But how does an architect get into community development, neighborhood development?

Explain that transition.

>> It started actually more recent, you know?

I've been in design field for quite some time around housing issues and really amplifying more equitable housing trajectories in America.

I think home democracy needs a place to stand.

And for me, home always meant that, like how -- >> Home ownership.

>> And redefining home ownership.

I think not just that I can own a home.

It's how that home operated in this bigger ecosystem of place.

So I went from looking at home in the traditional sense to, wow, home means so much more.

Again, coming from the Bronx, and more recently in 2022, my husband and I went to purchase a home.

>> In what city?

>> In Trenton, New Jersey.

>> Okay.

>> And, you know, a lot of these communities have suffered from decades of disinvestment because of policies like redlining or urban renewal.

And I think these are the canvases that really can amplify belonging and coming back into our spaces.

So me, my naivete after traveling the country and being a poster child with an exhibit called Undesign the Redline, thought we can come back, and this is post George Floyd.

We go in, we put our offer in for the home.

Ultimately, we end up missing three closings, and $800,000 of buying power becomes only $360,000 of buying power because of appraisals and other people's determination of valuation of our communities.

>> Sounds like redlining.

>> Bingo.

Modern day redlining.

It's still denying and creating barriers, and creating, you know, stifling opportunity for opportunities.

>> For the sake of our audience.

How would you define redlining?

>> Redlining is a practice that gained momentum during the New Deal policies when the federal government, particularly the Federal Housing Administration, uses maps to determine where investments are going to come and lending is going to happen and where it wasn't going to happen.

So it becomes institutionalized by the federal government.

But if we kind of look at the whole concept of redlining, it's a racialized psychology to say I'm going to put a line around haves and have nots.

And that's been happening since the first boats landed on this continent.

It's reinforced this hierarchy of human value.

So redlining in the more traditional sense is about lending, but it's much more deeper than that.

For me, it's about redlining democracy.

When we don't have access to have freedom and mobility, to pursue happiness the way we want to define that.

>> You know, my background in civil rights, and one of the things we found out that as we desegregated public accommodations, desegregated institutions, the biggest challenge was desegregating communities, desegregating neighborhoods because of the prevalence of redlining.

decline in redlining or is it or is it going up?

>> In the more, again, back to the traditional sense it was Jim Crow or the segregation -- segregation laws that said you weren't going to lend, or you're not going to be able to live in a certain way.

But now it's economic redlining, because even in our communities where no one would come in to our backyard, when we have access to live in these spaces now, we're still denied the ability to fix.

We got to remember a lot of our infrastructure in our communities are, you know, have declined.

So we need resources to fix these spaces.

Well, who do we turn to if the valuation and appraisal process is still making the determination of how money is going to come in to our communities?

Then we're competing with, you know, private equity firms that have those resources through investors that can buy low, flip and then sell high, which then, to me, creates now you had something that was $100,000.

Now it goes up to 2 or $3 million.

So we're redlined from ever being able to come back into those communities that once presented opportunities for us to live in.

>> From your informed perspective, have we made progress since 1968 Fair Housing Act?

Or is it -- Where are we now?

We need to renew the act?

We need to strengthen it?

Where are we in terms of federal law in regards to redlining?

>> I think when we look at the confluence of factors, it's a psychology that we're still up against that hasn't shifted since 1968.

It's this determination of who's deserving and undeserving to have access to this concept of the American dream.

And for me, we have much, much more to go, because simultaneously, wages and income have not kept up with the pace of acquisition of assets or affordability.

And we're in this sort of holding space where if you can't get access to those to capital investment or resources, that really penetrate a different narrative.

Right?

We're so accustomed to the poverty narrative that will invest if it looks like this.

But if it looks like a Queen Anne Victorian that belongs in Princeton, that's not deserving of the types of investments that we need to have in our community.

And we're seeking to change and shift that.

So we, in my opinion, we still have a long way to go because we have regressed since 1968 and our buying power is not the same.

And we're competing with people who have hundreds of millions in investment to come in and acquire assets.

But where does that leave most of us when we want to do the same?

>> This is in New Jersey, but your mission is across the country, your national.

What is the mission of Vasey?

>> Vasey is really to create an ecosystem of home that prioritizes people in neighborhoods.

It's about centering purpose when we acquire assets, and creating different pathways.

It's not a one size fits all.

There's people that want to live opportunity, too.

Those people who are okay living in apartments, we want to give that opportunity, too.

But we center purpose through our acquisition, and we create pathways of ownership that we fundamentally have started what's called a perpetual purpose trust, which holds assets.

And then through that trust, we're able in perpetuity to again create opportunities for occupants that either can be shared ownership opportunities, rentals.

But it all works towards creating more stability and recalibrating assets.

>> Does each neighborhood need the trust or you develop a national trust for all of these properties?

>> Following suit to companies like BlackRock and others, it's -- we'll create one national trust to leverage our portfolio of assets so that we're able to dispense resources as needed across this country.

And we're not unique in doing this.

>> And again, most people may not know what BlackRock is, but it's one of the most successful private equity ventures in the world, not just in the United States.

Do you have some interplay, some discussion, some intersection between what you do and a company like BlackRock?

>> Absolutely.

And, you know, it's using a market approach societal challenges.

I think across the board, not just in Black and brown communities.

All Americans are up against housing costs, are up against commercial spaces to start small businesses, how to do that affordably.

Our intersection is why not acquire property just like BlackRock is doing.

But instead of just paying shareholder dividends out, we recirculate that appreciation and value back to community and purpose.

That really creates more equilibrium and sustainability in the long term versus just extractive economies.

So there is the nexus in profit, but there's how we use that profit to drive purpose.

>> So as Vasey attempts to create these neighborhood, corporations for development, how do you distinguish between those opportunities where the governmental policy of the state or the governmental policy of the municipality seems to be building up more roadblocks than pathways?

How do you -- how do you take what you're doing in New Jersey and take it to Alabama or Mississippi?

>> I think our approach, again, is a market-driven approach, and we can't purport that we're a market society or free market society or nation and then stagnate those who have the same concept.

BlackRock doesn't seek approval when they go in and they purchase.

They don't care if it's blue, red or purple.

They're doing what they do.

And I think we amplify that through the work that we're doing, is that what we -- our goal is really to structure democracy in a way that it's more ascertainable, that it shows up.

>> Does that mean inclusive, because we have -- we have a history, a 400-plus year history that has been very exclusive.

But we have had the ability to say and hold those words, that creed, that foundational principle of all are created equal.

We have to hold on to that.

>> You, again, you used the terminology of the marketplace.

>> Yes.

>> Market principles.

So if diversity is good for business, it's good for advancing in the marketplace.

Then why do we have this resistance?

>> I think we haven't done it.

In my opinion, all honest, is that we've done it in a way that has not shown the value of the diversity of the market.

Right?

And we're one segment, right?

We're showing that through recalibration, through asset acquisition, we can create diverse neighborhoods in a way that is livable, that respects difference, that respects different options.

I think that there's a deep history of psy-- like a psychological embedding of hierarchy.

And I think that that's what we're trying to address, right?

I don't have all the answers, and I'll be the first to admit it, but I know we have to do something, because if we don't, we are losing our democratic presence.

>> I don't think anyone is born with that psychology.

I don't think anybody is born with that lack of self-esteem or lack of self appreciation.

It's a part of the socialization, the part of the miseducation.

So how does Vasey, given your mission, work to ensure that there's some reeducation, there's some opening up new pathways for communities so they can overcome the psychology that you've expressed?

>> We do something called house talks, and I want to give like a tangible example.

So we end up acquiring our first asset, which is the first project under Vasey, which is a 1900 Queen Anne Victorian.

Beautiful home, and we opened it up and we've invited people from all different backgrounds, whether they're Republican Democrats, in between.

They're all American to some form or extent, or believe in the aspirations of the American dream.

>> When you say open it up, open it up to programs, How do you open it up?

>> We open our doors and we host living room talks.

So just like you and I are having this conversation, we throw a couple of couches and chairs and we invite community members, and we circulate this over and over again so that we are in shared space together.

>> From your perspective, these living room discussions begins to open up a pathway.

>> Absolutely.

Because we then realize we're not so different from each other and what we want.

Everyone wants safe, secure, livable spaces.

People want to enjoy barbecues.

People want to roller skate on there -- We're not different.

And when we create the spaces that build that fellowship, and we not -- we don't just do talking.

We break bread with each other as well.

And it really creates this connectivity that lasts way beyond that couch talk or living room talk, right?

Now I'm introduced to someone that I otherwise would not have been in space with in a more relaxed home setting.

>> How do you get an invitation to one of these?

>> It's open invitation.

It's open invitation.

We make an announcement to whether it's our partners or school, or neighborhood.

It's always open, and people show up.

And it's like a good old house party where we have really interesting conversations.

We invite guest speakers that talk about shared ownership models, for example, of what Vasey is doing.

But even beyond cooperative housing, the importance of impact investment.

So you're learning while you're breaking bread.

>> So party with a purpose.

>> Yes.

>> I'm from the South, North Carolina, and throughout the South, there's tremendous land loss because people either don't have a trust or a will.

It goes to probate.

Probate winds up taking 15% to 30% of the property.

How do you promote land acquisition and land preservation?

Because families have access to millions of acres of land.

But over the last 20 or 30 years, 40 years, a lot of land has been lost because of the inattentiveness to taxes and other barriers.

>> It is a huge issue.

We are losing land.

We're losing opportunity, whether it's the South, the North, the Midwest or the West.

What we need and what Vasey is trying to do is really create this opportunity within our structure to address errors, property rights, entanglements, et cetera, By create -- but we need the investment, right?

First and foremost, if you don't have the investment to deal with the tax liens or the issues or the lawyer fees, then the loss is going to naturally happen.

But if we can really raise the investment, that's purpose driven, right?

It's not just about acquisition.

It gives us more leverage to show up at the table and say, well, here's what we can do and here's what we can't do.

It gives us options.

But right now, we're up against a rock and a hard place because the money for a lawyer, as you said, probate takes a certain amount.

And then if you have to settle taxes, where is that money coming from?

So we have to rethink our investment strategies and how we acquire assets and how we even support.

Not every model or every land piece is going to be for Vasey, right?

It's how do we create ecosystems of home.

So if that means that you have some sort of arm that allows for that type of -- to address those types of issues, that's more empowering, right?

Then that complements what Vasey's doing.

It's not a, like I said, a one size fits all.

But we have to raise that awareness, because I think more often than not, people are not -- their proximity to those issues, which are very real, are so far removed that it's this concept of just affordable housing.

We're just going to invest in that apartment complex or that development to create supply.

But there's a plurality to it.

And land is so essential to the work that we're trying to do, because without land, you don't have representation, you don't have a voice, you don't have a lot of what we've built democracy around.

>> Does Vasey help communities and neighborhoods acquire the land?

starting to do.

So along with our investment strategy of what we're raising, our model compiled seven of the top attorneys in the nation to deal with land and acquisition and impact investing.

Our hope is to create a blueprint so that we can pass that forward.

So whether we're in Alabama or Maryland or Louisiana, our conversations are around seeding this and saying there are pathways of what we can do to work together because so much, we put so much on our community so many times.

We put so much on our community members to figure it out.

But how do they figure it out?

This is such a complex, interwoven web of lots of legal barriers, lots of legal questions.

So that is our hope is to really create the investment arm so that we're able to then splice that out so that we're addressing all of these issues.

>> In many communities of color, the terminology "investment" seems to be something far out of reach, because most people are trying to take care of their basic requirements to live and to keep what they have without fear of losing it.

And a lot of times, the risk factor in investments keeps communities of color out of the marketplace.

They don't go to the "Wall Street Journal" and read what the stocks are doing.

But how do we take these complexities and break it down so people at the grassroots level not only comprehend what you're saying, what Vasey is doing, but want to participate?

Because to me, market participation, investment participation is the best education.

>> And I love what you're saying, and I think it's a dichotomy.

I think education on how you can invest or what investment means comes two-fold.

I think it's actually doing the work so that you can show better than you can just tell, right?

So it's not theoretical.

>> Experiential learning.

>> That's right.

So inviting people into the 27 Perdicaris home in Trenton, we go through this explanation, right?

What our monthly costs are, how housing costs are, you know, nine out of 10 times more than 30%.

So I think in creating actual models, that's part of our strategy in education, educating the public on the value of shared ownership models.

And it's teaching that that investment can be used in different ways that actually bring greater return for that individual.

And we have models that have shown this, whether it's in the Bronx amalgamated housing or Co-op City, right.

People pay rent and get nothing back.

Amalgamated in Co-op City, you own certain shares of this Co-op.

>> So there's equity.

>> There's equity coming into this.

>> And right now a lot of our communities of color, we're basically consumers.

So how does Vasey get this, what I would call primary financial literacy, to communities that are in so desperate need of it.

>> It's going to be a multi-pronged approach.

And again, when people are in their day-to-day and they're living, to your point, and they're consuming, it's stopping and saying, look at how you're consuming.

And how is that bringing value back to your community?

And I'm going to say it again, for me, it's showing better than I can tell.

It isn't bad that investments coming in and creating use of spaces that for far too long were disinvested in.

It's how that's happening and how purpose is more than nine out of 10 times not there.

>> All of what you've known, all of what you experienced, what gives you your greatest hope today?

>> I'm a mother of five children, and when they get up and they talk to me about aspirations, about what they want out of life, it gives me hope to say this is what it's for.

This is what we get up every day to ensure that when they pledge allegiance or when they step into the halls of Congress or they take a trip to the Washington Monument, that the words all are created equal, that unalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness has significance.

That gives me hope and agency to ensure that we scale our shared humanity, and not just for us, but for the next 250 years of America.

>> And oneness of our humanity.

Thank you, April De Simone, founder and creator of Vasey.

Thank you for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you for having me.

Thank you.

>> For more information about "The Chavis Chronicles" and our guests, visit our website at TheChavisChronicles.com.

Also, follow us on Facebook, X, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.

Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, we continue to look for ways to empower our customers.

We seek broad impact in our communities, and we're proud of the role we play for our customers and the U.S.

economy.

As a company, we are focused on supporting our customers and communities through housing access, small-business growth, financial health, and other community needs.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives.

Wells Fargo -- the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute -- our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural gas and oil industry around the world.

Learn more -- api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American -- dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed health, and happiness live as long as you do.

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